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Areas have their own limitations (at least the ones that are not 'enemies only') - if they're not close to competitive otherwise they just won't see use.
True, but such an analysis also undervalues coordinated fire, and the fact that n monsters consume (n^2-n)/2 times as many resources as a single monster does.
Not to go off topic, but is it really that bad? I have found (only a Wiz 4 mind you) the Orb to be mostly useless.
It requires attempting to break it to a certain extent, but it's fairly trivial to break it at higher level, especially when combined with almost anything else that imposes save penalties. At 11th or so you can make it impossible for a normal creature to save out of a condition, for example. That's... poor, but really it doesn't come up that often so it's not a big factor and why I felt reasonable excluding it.
Areas have their own limitations (at least the ones that are not 'enemies only') - if they're not close to competitive otherwise they just won't see use.
Sure, no doubt. But the limitation is generally has been very minor for us. Our wizard has always had a way to hit at least one person with the burst and not target any allies. But I'd say 80% of the time he's hitting 2+ and 20% of the time 4+. We do move a bit to help him out, but that's teamwork.
And the ones that do target only enemies are just huge. That level 3 close burst 3 for wizards that hits only enemies is just crazy powerful. Divine glow for clerics (level 1 encounter) is also very very nice.
The ones auto-hit everyone in 1 square or a zone are also grossly powerful. Auto-hit generally needs to be treated as about 2x damage...
If people wanted to boost the power and controller-ness of wizard at-wills, they could do a lot worse than just giving the wizard the benefits of Master's Wands automatically. So any wizard using Magic Missile gets to push 1, regardless of implement.
I think that's what I'm going to do in my games, actually.
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And it took Mearls this long to realize that the Controller was the anti-Leader role? I've known that since before Races and Classes was published. (You can see a similar dichotomy between Strikers and Defenders.)
I think this is the first time he's mentioned it. I'm pretty sure he was aware of it before the PHB hit the shelves in June, either as a design guideline or, at least, had some kind of dialogue going on in house about it. It probably just happened too late in the book's writing cycle to really emphasize.
Indeed, take a look at the Master's Wands you just mentioned. These could be viewed as equipment based fixes for wizard at-wills, so on some level Wizards was aware of what was going on well before AV was published.
I still feel the wizard at-wills don't need any help. I think the invoker at will is only a very very small delta (generally less than slow or prone) so not a big deal...
4e really undervalues area attacks. Sure they are weak against solos. But they are huge the rest of the time.
I don't think 4e is undervaluing anything. Vanguard's Lightning has the same AoE, the same range, and the same damage as Scorching Burst, in addition to the extra effect of hindering OAs. Thus, it has some use against minions, standards, elites, *and* solos.
EDIT - I just saw your post where you say you think the 4e developers also overvalue area attacks. I understand what you mean now. I still think that if Mearls thinks Vanguard's Lightning is the baseline for controllers, then Scorching Burst should be augmented, however.
Last edited by Jonathan Moyer; 16th December 2008 at 10:27 PM..
We had a wizard initially but we found it pretty weak overall. He was doing ok vs minions but we had a few cases of AE hitting the party that turned out to be pretty bad overall.
When he used flaming sphere at a start of a big fight he ruled that fight, but that was probably more having to do with the fact that if any lvl 1 daily is broken it's that one.
As soon as he started using at-wills mostly he sucked. Bad hit rate, low damage, slow that barely matters past round 1-2 of a combat, etc. Imo that's the sad truth of wizards.
Let's look at some numbers. Assuming a 20 int (60% hit rate) wizard with +1 damage bonus due to feat (either from staff focus or some other feat), you have the following dpr numbers for at-wills at lvl 1:
Magic Missile: 6.75.
Ray of frost = 5.8
Cloud of dagger with wisdom attack (14 wis) = 7.8
Scorching burst, assuming 2 targets which have to be pretty close and ideally in a position to not hit a friend with the spell: 11.65. And I want to stress the fact it's not trivial to always hit 2 good targets with the burst as far as I'm concerned. Monsters will want to melee you and get close to you.
Now let's look at the invoker: Avenging Light: 7.1 dpr off the bat, 8.9 dpr with the constitution bonus (16 consti, say a dwarf invoker).
Divine Bolts is basically a garanteed 2 targets which mean you are pretty much doing 11.65 dpr as long as you have 2 monsters within 10 range of you. This seem overall much better then scorching burst. Not counting the fact that Vanguard's Lightning is a direct upgrade and that the best controller spells they gave to controllers that I saw yet is Grasping Shards. I mean just better then ray of frost imo. Same range, same controlling effect but you get to clear the minions.
Playing an invoker tomorrow I would take grasping hands and probably divine bolts with a 20 wisdom built. As a human maybe I would add in avenging light with maybe 14 con or something similar. In those instances basically your at will are simply better then wizards and as for grasping hands it's probably better at control then even wizard's encounter at least for low level.
Just for comparaison as a striker you are looking at doing 12dpr or so with good builts minimum so doing 11.65 with divine bolts is nearly striker damage. I think wizards have decent encounters and good dailies (at least for doing damage, probably not for control though) at least early on but their at wills are very bad and since you rely on them a lot in the early levels that a major problem that the invoker doesn't seem to have (at least not as much).
Last edited by eprieur; 16th December 2008 at 08:48 PM..
My view is that the role of controllers should be area (mobility) denial and imposing conditions on the opponents. I don't want my wizard to fill the same damage-dealing role that my party's rogue and warlock fill. I want to limit what the enemy does and allow the strikers to be more effective in their role. Icy Terrain is great for my 2nd level wizard because I can knock things prone and let the rogue go nuts.
I don't think WotC should have pigeon-holed classes into certain roles. Rather, I think they should have their specific builds fit a role. A Wizard should have the option to be a controller or a striker (imo) based on the build and selection of powers. In fact, I sort of see Wizards more as strikers than controllers. I see them as nuking everything, with "controlling" as a minor aspect (if only held out from previous editions based on their spell list).
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Let me clarify. When designing powers, adding something to an attack (say slow) means you will have it deal less damage to keep it balanced. The bigger the bonus the more the damage is cut or level raised.
4e doesn't cut damage enough for area attacks.
Whatwhatwhat?
The Area attacks in the PHB are weak. Look at Icy Terrain. 1d6 damage over a small burst (same as Scorching burst). The knocked prone is nice, but still, that's weak.
Doing penny damage to several people is nice in theory. But in play, it's hard to get more than 2 foes in an attack, unless it's a Burst2.
I firmly disagree; I think the area effects are some of the weakest powers.
The Area attacks in the PHB are weak. Look at Icy Terrain. 1d6 damage over a small burst (same as Scorching burst). The knocked prone is nice, but still, that's weak.
Doing penny damage to several people is nice in theory. But in play, it's hard to get more than 2 foes in an attack, unless it's a Burst2.
I firmly disagree; I think the area effects are some of the weakest powers.
Wow. Maybe it's a DM thing. Maybe it's a party thing. But in our group the wizard does more total damage than the striker _every_ fight. The striker does more damage where it's needed, but the wizard does more total damage. Rarely is getting more baddies in the affect hard.
And things that don't hit allies _rock_. Divine glow, the close burst fighter attacks, etc.
Wow. Maybe it's a DM thing. Maybe it's a party thing. But in our group the wizard does more total damage than the striker _every_ fight.
Wow. Maybe it's just an experience thing. But I've played in several games with a wizard, and the wizard misses more often than not, or just can't get people in the attacks, or...
Hell, I playtested a druid and had the same problem; a situation where the biggest burst I had was a Burst 1, there were 2 hobgoblin archers next to one another, and 3 squares over was an ogre. So it's 'Do I hit those two, or do I hit the ogre, because the ogre is a bigger threat? I can't get them all in the burst'.
The only time I have ever seen a Wizard make a difference was a Sleep spell where the Sleep took out a controller enemy and then he was promptly CoD'd to death.
I just can't imagine the wizard rocking at all.
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And things that don't hit allies _rock_. Divine glow, the close burst fighter attacks, etc.
A power that targets only enemies, or buffs allies while hitting enemies, is far superior to just 'all creatures in burst', which all the Wizard's powers. I agree that those are definitely better AoE effects.
It may be a DM thing - some DMs don't position targets that close to each other, as a general rule. So - if your only option that hits more than 1 target _has_ to include an ally that they're flanking, that's a serious detriment to area effects.
It may be a DM thing - some DMs don't position targets that close to each other, as a general rule. So - if your only option that hits more than 1 target _has_ to include an ally that they're flanking, that's a serious detriment to area effects.
Coordination is a huge plus for wizards. Two enemies flanking an ally is a bad position for a burst. But if you can get your ally to step back before you attack, then it's a perfect shot.
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Wow. Maybe it's just an experience thing. But I've played in several games with a wizard, and the wizard misses more often than not, or just can't get people in the attacks, or...
I just can't imagine the wizard rocking at all.
A power that targets only enemies, or buffs allies while hitting enemies, is far superior to just 'all creatures in burst', which all the Wizard's powers. I agree that those are definitely better AoE effects.
I can see that, but I don't see how a wizard misses all that often. He almost has to have a 20 int (both attack and def stat), so at 1st level you are +5 to attack vs. reflex. That's about the same as +8 vs. AC, which is about as good as anyone other than a rogue gets (+9 with 20 dex, fighters are MAD enough that they can't generally get the 20 str). If you take a tiefling you've got +6 to hit with flaming burst which _is_ as good as it gets.
Then it's just a matter of being able to target folks. In KoSF we found that the large numbers of baddies were always available for flaming burst. Mix and match that with flaming sphere (which may be the best daily in the game) and the wizard cleans house. Toss in a fighter to keep people where you want them and you've got a LOT of damage.
The wizard in our 4e game is stunningly ineffectual. I think the "Nerf wizards!" meme went way too far. We have a melee-heavy party (rogue, ranger, paladin, wizard, bard) and we are in an urban campaign, which means a lot of tight alleys, small rooms, and interior spaces. Slowing enemies doesn't work because the melee is rushing into range with them. Hindering terrain screws us up at well. Area spells catch us in the bargain. So, pretty much, he's limited to magic missile, or "Magic Missing", as it has become known.
Definitely needs a buff.
I think it's interesting that the "Controller" in 4e is supposed to be what most would call a Debuffer in an MMORPG. This is a very useful role in a group (my ranger Daily which weakens a foe is extremely effective), but the wizard, currently, doesn't cut it. Since they seem to know this, it will be interesting to see if it's "fixed" in Arcane Power. (Is that before or after PHB2?)
Sounds like your wizard chose his powers poorly for that kind of setting. Thunderwave is good for close combat (as long as he learns the rules for what shape the wave can be, and where the starting spaces can be, he should miss the rest of the party), and Illusory Ambush is good for single targets, as is Cloud of Daggers. Magic missile is only good when it's essentially your only choice due to the extended range of the foe. If your wizard is sitting up close constantly using magic missile, he needs to change out his powers for something more appropriate to that campaign setting.
Wow. Maybe it's just an experience thing. But I've played in several games with a wizard, and the wizard misses more often than not, or just can't get people in the attacks, or...
Wizards suffers very little from multiple attribute dependency, so their attacks should hit more often than most people in the party. In addition, their powers tend to target more than one creature, so again they should hit more often than most people the part. If the wizard is always missing, then either he's gone drastically against the odds, or is doing something wrong.
Toss in a fighter to keep people where you want them and you've got a LOT of damage.
Mark
That last part there is key. Sure, in the above example of the 2 Hobgoblins and the Orc, you couldn't get all three in the burst. However, the players can try and work together to set things up. See below:
(1,2,3 are enemies, F is Fighter, W is Wizard, x is unoccupied)
x12x3x
xxxxFx
xxWxxx
Say the Wizard wants to drop Scorching Burst, but he can't hit all three guys. There's a simple solution here... Have the Wizard hold an action to cast Scorching Burst until after the Fighter attacks #3. On the Fighter's turn, he can shift up and to the right and then attack #3 with Tide of Iron. Whether he hits or misses doesn't matter, Scorching Burst will go off since the trigger was "when he attacks #3". If it hits, it will push #3 to the left so that he's adjacent to #2 and all three enemies will be caught in the burst.
Using teamwork like this, you can manipulate the enemies into closer formations to allow your Wizard to fire off his AoE's. Just sending him in alone and expecting him to figure it all out isn't going to work. The party needs to work as a unit, with the Defenders protecting the squishing and setting up CA and moving enemies to more advantageous spots if they have the abilities, the Strikers focusing their damage to bring targets down faster, the Leaders keep everyone alive and give them buffs to help them fight better and then the Controller does his best to find the best situations to use his powers in.
One of the other things that I think people miss about the Controllers is that you have options. Going back to the example above, let's say the Fighter couldn't get around to the #3 monster. Rather than just casting Scorching Burst or Magic Missile, the Wizard should look at his options. Perhaps he could hit #3 with Grasping Shadows to help out the Fighter, or maybe hit #1 or #2 with Ray of Frost to slow them down and keep them off the party's back? This Wizard should always keep a good mix of multi-target powers and single-target powers (or at least, non-AoE powers, like Acid Arrow, that work on smaller groups). Yeah, the big AoE's are flashier, but sometimes it's better to just make one or two guys' lives a living hell, than to waste an AoE on just two enemies.
Doing penny damage to several people is nice in theory. But in play, it's hard to get more than 2 foes in an attack, unless it's a Burst2.
That's rather curious, and I sorta agree.
On Martial Power they gave Rangers some powers that have the ability to hit more than one target but they give you a boost if you choose to hit only a single one (Rapid Volley, Scattering Volley, to name two).
I wonder if that wouldn't be a good idea to bring for Wizards AoE attacks.
Wizards suffers very little from multiple attribute dependency, so their attacks should hit more often than most people in the party. In addition, their powers tend to target more than one creature, so again they should hit more often than most people the part. If the wizard is always missing, then either he's gone drastically against the odds, or is doing something wrong.
Party wizard's magic missile +4 vs. Reflex, 2d4+4 damage.
My twin strike: +7 vs AC, twice, 1d10 damage.
I usually hit at least once, and while my average damage is lower, it's a lot more consistent. +4 vs. +7 is a really big difference at low levels, and Ref. defense isn't usually THAT much lower than Armor.
Thunderwave is pretty useless when his Wisdom is 10.
The Slow effect of Ray of Frost has not once come into play in 18 hours of gaming, encompassing 8 encounters.
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