Mearls on Controller design and At-Will balance

[Lizard]

Originally Posted by monboesen

And did the Wizard remember to use his Mage Hand cantrip for opening and closing doors, drawing and withdrawning curtains and shutters on windows, move furniture out of the way of friends and into the way of enemies etc. etc.

No. You can do that as a minor action, can't you? Hmmm...

[Cadfan]

Originally Posted by Plane Sailing

Wizards haven't had any effect on controlling the battlefield at all. They typically just do a little bit of damage to 1 or 2 people each round.

What amount of damage would stop being a "little bit?"

[eprieur]

Magic Missile is about half striker damage (6.75dpr vs 12-15dpr for strikers).
You need to constantly hit 2 targets with something like scorching burst to do "near" what a ranger would do with a twin strike + quarry attack or what a rogue would do with a sneak attack.

Each 1d6 + 6 damage is around 5.8 dpr. You need to be consistantly hitting 2 targets to be able to stay competitive versus strikers and at least 3 targets for each time you only hit 1. And note that at 3 targets you are barely over striker damage in the low levels. You really need 4 targets to get out of pact a bit. If you are constantly hitting 4 targets+ and are "rocking your campaign" then congratulation but I don't think it's representative of the long run. At least it wasn't certainly the case in my campaign when we had a wizard.

Example of something that would help wizard a ton would be to increase versatility on scorching burst so they can target either a burst 1 within 10 or (1 or 2 targets). That would make it more on part with the invokers stuff.

[Lacyon]

To be honest, I'm having trouble imagining a campaign set in tight spaces where AoE powers don't shine on a semi-regular basis.

I mean, in a wide open world, two bad guys charge the front-line dudes like so:

------
--BB--
--FF--
------

and the wizard can AoE them like this until one shifts like so:

------
---B--
-BFF--
------

at which point something has to change before wizzy can get any good action.

But if there's walls in the way:

|--|
|BB|
|FF|
|--|

I'm not sure why the wizard isn't regularly hitting multiple foes.

I mean, I can sure think of a lot of specific situations where he wouldn't be able to, I'm just not sure why they're happening more often than the basic ones.

[Mistwell]

Originally Posted by Mal Malenkirk

That being said, guilty as charged, I do recommend taking a rock-paper-scissor approach to my at-will. Scorching Burts (reflex), Thunderwave (fort) and Illusory ambush (will).

I concur. And that is the set I went with. I suspect I will need to use skills that let me know the weaknesses of various foes to know which one to use, and they don't all apply all the time, but it's a really good set of at-wills in my opinion.

[Mistwell]

Originally Posted by firesnakearies

NEW SCORCHING BURST
Damage: 1d6 fire damage (plus see effect)

Effect: Target takes additional fire damage equal to the caster's Intelligence modifier at the end of its next turn, unless it spends a move action to extinguish the flames, which is automatically successful with no saving throw needed. This damage persists indefinitely until the target spends the required move action to end it. Additional applications of this effect from multiple castings of Scorching Burst do not stack.

I like it a lot.

[Mistwell]

Originally Posted by Lizard

that's nice, he's an 18 int, 10 Wis Half-elf, pumped Charisma to be the party diplomat. (I pumped mine for Intimidate, I'm a bad ass mofo). I think he's staff implement. At-wills are MM and Frost, Daily is Sleep/Acid Arrow, not sure about encounter.

He picked the two weakest at-wills. It's not surprising he isn't doing well.

Scorching bust tends to hit the most number of targets, even in confined quarters, provided you know how to center it.

Thunderwave hits the second most number of targets, and is good for close quarters, again assuming you know how to target and manipulate where it will go.

And even Cloud of Daggers is a better single-target at-will than either of the other two you mentioned, since it does more damage, and can block a smaller corridor in confined spaces.

And with a Staff and Leather Armor, your wizard can withstand some attacks at or near the front line to use those at-wills and targeting requirements.

So really, it's not the wizard who is bad in that situation, it's the poor choices your player made. He picked two weak at-wills intended for use on an open field. Magic Missile is for distant enemies (to hit them far away), and ray of frost is as well. (to slow them while they are at maximum range). Neither are good for close range fighting, neither are good for cramped conditions, and neither should be your "standard" attack as they only hit one target and you are not a striker.

[DracoSuave]

Not to mention he bumped Charisma rather than simply take Skill Training in Diplomacy.

Also, Staff+Leather+18 Int = Scale Mail armor. Buddy's sporting Fighter-sized AC here.

[Scholar & Brutalman]

Originally Posted by Mistwell

He picked the two weakest at-wills. It's not surprising he isn't doing well.

Scorching bust tends to hit the most number of targets, even in confined quarters, provided you know how to center it.

Thunderwave hits the second most number of targets, and is good for close quarters, again assuming you know how to target and manipulate where it will go.

And even Cloud of Daggers is a better single-target at-will than either of the other two you mentioned, since it does more damage, and can block a smaller corridor in confined spaces.

Thunderwave and Cloud of Daggers aren't so hot when you've only got 10 Wisdom. It's IMO poor design that none of the wizard powers use Con or Dex for secondary modifiers. Hopefully they'll fix this as well when they make the wizard more controllery.

[Tony Vargas]

Originally Posted by apearlma

It isn't subpar as something you'd use once per combat. It is subpar when it is either you use Scorching Burst or X and your opponents are spread out.

I don't see how having the ability to toss a burst 1 once/encounter can be /better/ than being able to toss a burst 1 every round. That's just absurd on the face of it. Are you trying to say that there just isn't much call for area spells? Area spells don't just do damage (or put effects) on multiple enemies, they also bypass concealment and cover, and they act as area interdiction - that is, they keep enemies from staying in formation or bunching up to concetrate melee power on your front line. If you assume you always succeed at that, whether you actually have an AE or not, I suppose the value of area attacks isn't that great, anymore.

I don't think that's a safe assumption, though. A lot of monsters benefit from being adjacent to thier allies or ganging up on the same PC (over and above the usual advantage of concentrating damage on one victim). If monsters stay spread out, they're giving up those advantages - so well-played ones won't disperse unless forced to by the controller. After dispersing the enemy, the controller no longer dishes striker+ damage, but he's succeeded at his role.

Originally Posted by firesnakearies

What if one were to alter Scorching Burst as follows:
Damage: 1d6 fire damage (plus see effect)
Effect: Target takes additional fire damage equal to the caster's Intelligence modifier at the end of its next turn, unless it spends a move action to extinguish the flames, which is automatically successful with no saving throw needed. This damage persists indefinitely until the target spends the required move action to end it. Additional applications of this effect from multiple castings of Scorching Burst do not stack.

Interesting idea.

The more conventional way to write it up would be:

Hit: 1d6 fire damage, plus continuing fire damage equal to your INT modifier (target my use a move action to end).

The problem with the conventional mode is that continuing damage happens at the start of the victim's turn, so they'd almost always take the damage once. Actually, that's not so much a 'problem' if you want to upgrade Scorching Burst. Re-writing continuing damage rules for a specific power is always an option in an exception-based system, but IMHO, the game runs smoother if you try to avoid such things.

Or the secondary fire damage could be based on Wisdom, or Dexterity, or a flat amount, or another 1D6, or whatever. I'm not sure what would be best.

Basing it on DEX would make it a 'wand wizard power' - basing it on WIS would make it an 'orb wizard power' (and they already have /two/). A flat amount - 5 is most common, 2 is apropriate for a 'weaker' power - wouldn't be out of line. You might want to let INT add to the base damage, though, if you go for a flat amount, like 1d4+INT +2/continuing, OR:

Or maybe return the hit damage to 1D6+Int and just make the secondary damage 1 point per round. I dunno.

And should the effect happen only to those hit, or to everyone in the area? I'd think the latter would make it very potent, but maybe too powerful.

Only those hit, so it doesn't step on Cloud of Daggers.

[apearlma]

Originally Posted by Tony Vargas

I don't see how having the ability to toss a burst 1 once/encounter can be /better/ than being able to toss a burst 1 every round. That's just absurd on the face of it.

Once per encounter at the cost of a feat(with possible free skill) vs. every round at the cost of an at-will. Given non-human wizards only get one additional at-will, that's a high cost if there's no moment where Scorching Burst represents the best possible action.

This is also in the context that Wizards, if anything, should find it difficult to pick Encounter/Daily powers that don't target areas. Non-Wizards getting it once a day often have problems picking up area damage.

[Lizard]

Originally Posted by Mistwell

He picked the two weakest at-wills. It's not surprising he isn't doing well.

I was wrong; he took MM and Thunderwave, which is where his 10 Wis really shines. I think his Encounter must be the icy one.

[Jack99]

Originally Posted by Lizard

The wizard in our 4e game is stunningly ineffectual. I think the "Nerf wizards!" meme went way too far. We have a melee-heavy party (rogue, ranger, paladin, wizard, bard) and we are in an urban campaign, which means a lot of tight alleys, small rooms, and interior spaces. Slowing enemies doesn't work because the melee is rushing into range with them. Hindering terrain screws us up at well. Area spells catch us in the bargain. So, pretty much, he's limited to magic missile, or "Magic Missing", as it has become known.

Definitely needs a buff.

Originally Posted by Lizard

Which is most of them.

I admit, we do need to work on tacticals. In our last game, in a mansion, we spread out to look for a room and so triggered several encounters, and we had people running around from room to room instead of focus firing. In most cases, though, if the wizard had a clear shot at the target, someone else was also nearby. There was a lot of opening, closing, and locking doors, and while there was a nice open area for a fight, it was being covered by a (regenerating) archer on a balcony we couldn't reach. The two ranged characters were both "squishy" and didn't want to expose themselves to artillery fire, and the rest of us were fighting in narrow hallways and small rooms. The large, open, rooms had no monsters in them.

Other fights have been in crowded bars, narrow alleys, and sewers. In most cases, it takes a round to close the distance and then it's melee-on-melee, with magic missile being the only spell the wizard can bring to bear with any effectiveness. We should be "dinging" next game, and we'll see if additional feats/utility help.

My campaign has been going on for a while now, and players are approaching level 10 (will ding next time, if they survive their first dragon-encounter). One thing I have noticed is how the wizard has become much better over time. Not due to getting more encounters and dailies, and thus using his at-wills more, but instead because the party has embraced the whole cooperative spirit of 4e instead of playing me, myself and I, which they had a tendency to do in the previous editions. That cooperation has helped our wizard immensely, because he can use his area attacks a lot more often, when other players help position the monsters so that the party can benefit from having a wizard. Also, he has himself become better using the push effect of thunderwave coupled with action points and area of effects to achieve a great synergy.

Sure, he does not feel so hot against solo monsters, but on the other hand, no one can touch him when the battlefield is flooded with minions. But that's okay, as he says, he doesn't expect the wizard to be the best in every circumstance, as he was in the previous editions (especially 2e, which is what we have played the most).

Anyway, to sum up, I do not feel there is anything underpowered about the wizard. I would wish however, that all of his spells did less damage, but impaired the monsters more instead. But that's for another thread.

Cheers

[Budalic]

Originally Posted by eprieur

Magic Missile is about half striker damage (6.75dpr vs 12-15dpr for strikers).
You need to constantly hit 2 targets with something like scorching burst to do "near" what a ranger would do with a twin strike + quarry attack or what a rogue would do with a sneak attack.

Assume that monster's ref defense is 2 points below AC. At first level, ranger with twin strike will do, assuming 50% chance of hitting, quarry, 18 dex and longbow, 0.5 * 5.5 + 0.5 * 5.5 + 0.75 * 3.5 = 8.125 damage. Wizard with 18 int and scorching burst will do 0.5 * 7.5 + 0.5 * 7.5 = 7.5 damage against 2 targets. That's 0.625 damage difference - enough to account sometimes catching 3 targets. I didn't count feats, because effect of astral fire and weapon focus / ex. weapon prof. is equal for this comparision.
And if party cooperates with you (delay/ready), it's easier to set up 2 or 3 tragets for attack.

[James McMurray]

Originally Posted by Lizard

I was wrong; he took MM and Thunderwave, which is where his 10 Wis really shines. I think his Encounter must be the icy one.

This isn't a case of the wizard being too weak, it's a case of one person making a very sub par build for RP reasons. There's nothing wrong with it if he enjoys himself, but it doesn't work as evidence of the wizard's usefulness in a normal game.

[Lizard]

Originally Posted by James McMurray

This isn't a case of the wizard being too weak, it's a case of one person making a very sub par build for RP reasons. There's nothing wrong with it if he enjoys himself, but it doesn't work as evidence of the wizard's usefulness in a normal game.

Wasn't 4e supposed to free us from the terrors of the character optimization board and the need for "system mastery"?

Seriously, I hope he takes advantage of the ability to respec at every level. His Wisdom won't be at +1 until, what, 8th level?

My own character is also "sub par" according to the number crunchers on RPG.net, but he's still very effective. (I have a 2WF ranger with a 14 Cha, 12 con, 12 dex, 12 wis, 18 Str, 10 int.) I plan on spending a lot of his feats on skill training and skill focus to round out the character concept I couldn't build at 1st level -- he needs Streetwise, bad. Indeed, none of the characters in our group are "optimized" -- we all start with a concept and then make the numbers fit as closely as possible to the character we want to play.

[James McMurray]

You don't need a char op board to know that minimizing your wisdom and then picking a power that relies on wisdom is going to make you less effective in combat. Like I said, if it's fun, that's good. I'm not disparaging people who don't go for the bang at every point on their sheet, I rarely do that these days myself. I'm just saying that it isn't a good starting point for making the case that a certain class is underpowered just because someone can make a build that's underpowered.

[jorwland]

Playtest these changes:

1) Ray of Frost. Targets one or TWO creatures in range. (choose targets near the rogue if you got one it since a slowed creature grants combat advantage and therefore sneak attack from rogue)

2) Cloud of Daggers. Sustain Minor. (Allowing wizards to keep this single square as an obstacle without re-casting is a good thing. It wold be possible to have 3 up at the same time at the expense of other actions)

3) Magic Missile. Add push 1, Push 2 at paragon, push 3 at epic.

[Mengu]

Originally Posted by Lizard

Wasn't 4e supposed to free us from the terrors of the character optimization board and the need for "system mastery"?

I don't know if it's supposed eliminate mastery requirement or not, but it doesn't remove stupidity from the equation. There is nothing stopping someone from building a fighter with 8 strength and 20 intelligence. But the book does have suggestions and guidelines for each class, which will help you toward a playable character, as opposed to a gimped character.

However it can't be denied that mastery of the system does open more doors and leads to more educated decissions (optimized or not).

[infocynic]

Originally Posted by [B

firesnakearies[/b]]
NEW SCORCHING BURST
Damage: 1d6 fire damage (plus see effect)

Effect: Target takes additional fire damage equal to the caster's Intelligence modifier at the end of its next turn, unless it spends a move action to extinguish the flames, which is automatically successful with no saving throw needed. This damage persists indefinitely until the target spends the required move action to end it. Additional applications of this effect from multiple castings of Scorching Burst do not stack.

How about:

Scorching Burst
Arcane, Fire, Implement, Zone
Standard Action Area Burst 1 within 10
Int vs Reflex
Target: All creatures in burst
Hit: 1d6 fire damage
Effect: The burst creates a zone of flames. Any creature that ends its turn in the zone or that enters the zone takes additional damage equal to your CON, DEX, or WIS modifier. Overlapping applications of this zone do not stack. The zone persists until the end of your next turn.
Special: When you gain this power, choose CON, DEX, or WIS for the secondary damage. Once you make this choice, it cannot be changed, even by retraining.

[I really don't know why you need that clause about 'cannot be changed' but all the other powers like this have it.]

The zone effect is nice -- you get a little battlefield control, and the end of turn instead of start of turn makes it non auto-kill vs minions, and still gives monsters the chance to get out... and if they're up against defenders near the front line they may be taking OAs to move.