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1) Ray of Frost. Targets one or TWO creatures in range. (choose targets near the rogue if you got one it since a slowed creature grants combat advantage and therefore sneak attack from rogue)
Slowed creatures do not grant combat advantage.
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Not to mention he bumped Charisma rather than simply take Skill Training in Diplomacy.
Also, Staff+Leather+18 Int = Scale Mail armor. Buddy's sporting Fighter-sized AC here.
You can also add in the Staff Fighting feat from the Gladiator article in dragon. Which makes Quarterstaves a double weapon, and double weapons are defensive. So you can gain another +1AC* .
* Note: This is only applicable if your DM believes that a Staff Implement and a Quarterstaff are in fact the same thing.
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1) Ray of Frost. Targets one or TWO creatures in range. (choose targets near the rogue if you got one it since a slowed creature grants combat advantage and therefore sneak attack from rogue)
2) Cloud of Daggers. Sustain Minor. (Allowing wizards to keep this single square as an obstacle without re-casting is a good thing. It wold be possible to have 3 up at the same time at the expense of other actions)
3) Magic Missile. Add push 1, Push 2 at paragon, push 3 at epic.
Even if it doesn't his idea is still good. In fact I was thinking about that lately. Possibly in another thread but here is a quick rundown of the "problem".
In short the whole system is balanced between roles. Everyone is able to do a base attack that use their stats and they all have something.
-Strikers have their 1D6 they add to damage.
-Healers have their heals twice per encounter as minor actions.
-Defenders have their mark with their own flavor.
To be of that "role", you need to do have these features. So what do controllers have? Nothing really special at least for the ones I saw (didn't check the druid yet).
I'm sure the dev toyed with the ideas but overall, if you think striker you could have something like a minor status effect each time you connect with a spell at least one per round. Say a wizard could "knock" someone over once per round.
So basically in this version a controller would replace the 1d6 striker effect once per round with a "control" effect. It could be a push. It could have more flavor, be more detailed, etc.
Another option would be to have a "strong" status effect as a minor action, twice per encounter (similar to heals). So a controller could try to immobilize (root) or stun a target twice per encounter with a minor action.
You can combine the 2, have the minor knock back on hit with any spell once per round and twice per encounter you can "upgrade" that effect to a stun or immobilize, etc.
If controller had something like that they would probably at least feel a bit like that they are actually controlling something.
I think it's a problem in class design that they don't have anything special while all the other roles do. And that was why the dev originally touched on in his posts I think.
1) Ray of Frost. Targets one or TWO creatures in range. (choose targets near the rogue if you got one it since a slowed creature grants combat advantage and therefore sneak attack from rogue)
Compared to Twin Strike or Dual Strike this seems overpowered to me. Both of those powers target two creatures as well, but they only deal [w] damage, no modifier and no effect.
Solution, make the base damage for the attack 1d6 with no modifier addition. But add "Special: If you target one creature with this attack, then it deals Int modifier extra damage."
So you can target 2 creatures to deal 1d6 damage and slow them both, or you can target one to deal 1d6 + Int modifier damage and slow that one.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eprieur
In short the whole system is balanced between roles. Everyone is able to do a base attack that use their stats and they all have something.
-Strikers have their 1D6 they add to damage.
-Healers have their heals twice per encounter as minor actions.
-Defenders have their mark with their own flavor.
That's an interesting summary.
Wizards -- our controler class (discounting the unpublished classes) -- have their cantrips as their "extra something". So potentially instead of "controller", a wizard should be called a "toolbox".
Or a "tool". Take your pick.
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Last edited by Nail: Today....just a few minutes ago
No, wizard's special something is the spell book, allowing them to choose their power based on what impact they expect it to have. Druids have their flexibility a different way.
The cantrips are just handy bonuses. But you don't need class features to do your job well, if you're a power-based role like a Controller.
No, wizard's special something is the spell book, allowing them to choose their power based on what impact they expect it to have. Druids have their flexibility a different way.
The cantrips are just handy bonuses. But you don't need class features to do your job well, if you're a power-based role like a Controller.
I didn't exactly say that wizard in particular don't have anything special but that controllers don't.
If you look at the invokers they don't seem to have any flexibilty or spellbook or anything that would lead us to believe it's a "feature" of controllers. But honestly if we have to look for it it's because it's simply not there. Compare that to the strikers, healers and defenders and they each have a power very clearly defined for their roles while the controllers have none.
As for the double ray of frost, minus the slow effect that's exactly what the new invoker power is:
Divine Bolts Target: One or two creatures Hit: 1d6 + Wisdom modifier lightning damage.
This spell alone will make sure that invokers will outdamage wizards are long as there are 2 targets within range (10). And not even counting the fact the invokers got the best "control" at will yet with grasping hands. I mean the whole point of this thread is not that wizards "sucks" in general but more that the at-wills of wizards are crap compared to the at-wills invokers have to the point that you can ask yourself why do wizards have suck bad at wills compared to them?
I thought that reason was covered by the designer saying they were erring on the side of damage. I mean, if you have to ask why in a thread that's started by the answer as to why...
I'm just saying, Arcane Power will probably either fix that, or solidify wizards as the damage arcane controller, while putting sorcerers as the control controller, neither of which is a bad solution.
But then what 'control' is can't be as easily disected into class features as Striker, Leader, and Defender can. Not to mention, Barbarians are -very- capable strikers and they don't have a 'Striker Bonus Damage' feature either. Controller just happens to be a concept that isn't easily encapsulated into class features; That's not a bad thing or a flaw with the implementation, but just a challenge inherent in the role itself. But that doesn't make the -role- bad, but merely means that design has to take that into account.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DracoSuave
But then what 'control' is can't be as easily disected into class features as Striker, Leader, and Defender can.
I disagree.
A "Controller" was supposed to control the battlefield --> and yet the Fighter class features fill this function better. How simple would it be to give the Wizard a class feature that gave battlefield control? Currently, it's not there.
Currently, the Wizard class freature says "Toolbox". Cantrips (and - as you rightly point out - the spellbook for daily powers) scream "utility", not "battlefield control"!
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Last edited by Nail: Today....just a few minutes ago
Things like
Exclude 1 or more targets from your area/close attacks
Targets take a -1/-2/-3 penalty to saves against your attacks
Auras that slow or weaken enemies
Ability to sustain zones/conjurations more easily
Having powers that exert more control only if you're a wizard (in the same way that a striker power and a non-striker power often deal the same damage, but the striker gets extra dice of damage - this helps with multiclassing), for instance turning slow to immobilize. This would be particularly interesting to do with implement mastery.
1) Ray of Frost. Targets one or TWO creatures in range. (choose targets near the rogue if you got one it since a slowed creature grants combat advantage and therefore sneak attack from rogue)
2) Cloud of Daggers. Sustain Minor. (Allowing wizards to keep this single square as an obstacle without re-casting is a good thing. It wold be possible to have 3 up at the same time at the expense of other actions)
3) Magic Missile. Add push 1, Push 2 at paragon, push 3 at epic.
Those seem like really good changes at first glance! I like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by infocynic
How about:
I like this one too. It's cool.
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I thought that reason was covered by the designer saying they were erring on the side of damage. I mean, if you have to ask why in a thread that's started by the answer as to why...
I'm just saying, Arcane Power will probably either fix that, or solidify wizards as the damage arcane controller, while putting sorcerers as the control controller, neither of which is a bad solution.
But then what 'control' is can't be as easily disected into class features as Striker, Leader, and Defender can. Not to mention, Barbarians are -very- capable strikers and they don't have a 'Striker Bonus Damage' feature either. Controller just happens to be a concept that isn't easily encapsulated into class features; That's not a bad thing or a flaw with the implementation, but just a challenge inherent in the role itself. But that doesn't make the -role- bad, but merely means that design has to take that into account.
Barbarians "striker" bonus is kinda built in Howling Strike and the rage mechanism but it's pretty much there. The concept is essentially you deal weapon damage + stats + 1d6.
As for what would define a controller. Nothing really prevent some kind of unified mechanic to work for controllers also even though I tend to agree that it could be "harder" to do then with strikers and healers and marks.
But just something like 2-3 times per encounter the hability to dish out a stun, or an immobilized, or something else would probably be enough to "define" controllers a lot more then how they are currently defined.
Solution, make the base damage for the attack 1d6 with no modifier addition. But add "Special: If you target one creature with this attack, then it deals Int modifier extra damage."
So you can target 2 creatures to deal 1d6 damage and slow them both, or you can target one to deal 1d6 + Int modifier damage and slow that one.
Another idea - make it target two targets but without any effect and add "Special: If you target only one creature with this attack, then the target is slowed."
Instead of increasing its raw power, you add a lot of versatility to it. Cripple one or blast two. It's also a nice counter point to scorching burst - fire kills concentrated minions, ice pinpoints two precisely.
A "Controller" was supposed to control the battlefield --> and yet the Fighter class features fill this function better. How simple would it be to give the Wizard a class feature that gave battlefield control? Currently, it's not there.
Currently, the Wizard class freature says "Toolbox". Cantrips (and - as you rightly point out - the spellbook for daily powers) scream "utility", not "battlefield control"!
I don't really agree with that. The Fighter exercises "control" only in a limited definition of it. You can just as easily call this "stickiness" or "defending".
As a Fighter, I can't make a guy squares away from me move towards me (as in "forced movement", not just getting his attention) or slow down a group of enemies. Most of my powers deal with locking down or manipulating one target at a time, and then sometimes getting the ability to attack everyone in a burst 1.
The Wizard, with the appropriate powers, can move multiple opponents across the battlefield, slow people at-will or in groups, hand out many status effects, throw powers out with things like burst 3 radii and create hampering terrain in any number of ways.
In short, Marking =/= Wall of Fire when it comes to control.
I think part of the problem is there's still a lot of mental baggage surrounding what defines a wizard from previous editions. Magic Missile and Fireball are still signature spells for the class, but don't necessarily lend themselves to the 4E Wizard's new role of controller. Looking through the power list it seems to me that more focus was given to simply converting a lot of the core Wizard spells of previous editions, and the actual controller concept was squeezed in where it could be.
Also, something that's been a bit overlooked in this thread is the fact that there are two Wizard builds in the PHB - a Control Wizard and a War Wizard.
The War Wizard is defined as the damage guy, much more of an old school blaster. So perhaps we don't need to redo the at wills like Scorching Ray or Magic Missile, as they support this build just fine.
There just seems to be need for more powers which support the Control build, on par with the new Invoker abilities we've seen.
Also, a quick glance through the Wizard's powers, I don't see any which gain a benefit for selecting one build over the other, unlike some other classes. Perhaps making the builds based on a class feature (like Rogue Tactics. Of course, then we'd have to give a name to this feature. Something, like... I dunno... "schools". ). Then add a slight damage kicker to certain spells for the War Wizard build, while push/pull or ongoing conditions kickers could be added to some for the Controller build.
Heck, you could even just have War Wizards add a flat +1 damage to damage spells and Control Wizards get a +1 push on damage spells.
This way, you could have the Wizard with a Controller role, and secondaries of either Striker or Defender depending on build/power selection.
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Agreed with Doc Proc. A fighter can 'control' in that he forces enemies to stay near him, and controls the area in his immediate vacinity. The wizard does that as well, but is not limited to the square beside him. He can do a lot more to lock down monsters than a fighter.
Sure, they both have powers that knock a guy prone, but knocking an adjacent enemy prone is a totally different thing than knocking an enemy across the battlefield prone. One keeps the monster attacking the closest foe, the other keeps the monster from attacking at all.
Agreed with Doc Proc. A fighter can 'control' in that he forces enemies to stay near him, and controls the area in his immediate vacinity. The wizard does that as well, but is not limited to the square beside him. He can do a lot more to lock down monsters than a fighter.
Sure, they both have powers that knock a guy prone, but knocking an adjacent enemy prone is a totally different thing than knocking an enemy across the battlefield prone. One keeps the monster attacking the closest foe, the other keeps the monster from attacking at all.
As a war wizard their at-will do really bad damage though. They don't have enough feats they can take compared to other classes and they do less then half of the damage strikers do unless they manage to get 2-3 targets. Not exactly great dpr material.
2d4 isn't that far off from 1d10. And while they can't add that single point here and there from feats, they CAN add it in from items and such.
And 1d6+int is good enough when multi targets DO apply. War wizards take Cloud of Daggers and Scorching Burst, thus giving them single and multi-target capability in their at-wills. Let's face it, Cloud of Daggers is a as damaging a power as Sly Flourish.
). Then add a slight damage kicker to certain spells for the War Wizard build, while push/pull or ongoing conditions kickers could be added to some for the Controller build.
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