D&D 4th Edition RulesAsk questions about 4th-Edition rules and the like in here. General discussion about 4E or any other game belongs in General RPG Discussion, above.
Ok just to be clear. The longest range I have found so far is 20/40 on the long bow. I have started 3e encounters at 1000 yards--as it was on the relatively flat tundra of Everfrost (EQ).
It worked well.
If I was designing an encounter where I wanted to give my smart/experienced PCs a chance for some ranged shooting I would start the combat at at least 80 boxes (400 feet)--to allow for some maneuvering before coming straight at each other.
I think my entire group needs to get used to just how many HP 4e monsters have--boatloads compared to 3e.
Last edited by YuriPup; 12th January 2009 at 12:15 AM..
Sure, that's a good tactic. I can't see why they would leave their fire support behind however, if they're an organised and intelligent force.
I'd certainly try to play 'organised & intelligent' foes that way, but these stupid undead were simply under orders to keep the PCs from interfering with the hooded ritual caster for a few rounds while he finished his casting (after which, he left!). While one or more of them may have stood in the doorway if there were PCs to attack on the other side, in my mind that pretty much translated to 'no reason to leave this room'. So they could've dropped one of the Chillborn Zombies and maybe a few minions with this tactic but it was only going to allow more minion waves to hit them in the long run.
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA PCs now: Genasi Warlord 5 Human BRV Fighter 5
Posts: 8,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrSpunj
...So they could've dropped one of the Chillborn Zombies and maybe a few minions with this tactic but it was only going to allow more minion waves to hit them in the long run.
The hint to me (the player) to just charge in: the passageway outside the room wasn't "drawn in" on the gaming table map. Only the encounter room existed. That's the DMs way of saying "just get in the room and start the encounter already!"
__________________ - Nail
Last edited by Nail: Today....just a few minutes ago
The hint to me (the player) to just charge in: the passageway outside the room wasn't "drawn in" on the gaming table map. Only the encounter room existed. That's the DMs way of saying "just get in the room and start the encounter already!"
Hehe, I'm guilty of doing that, too. If my players try to flee the scene, I'll draw the necessary terrain, but otherwise I hardly ever bother.
I actually did something in one encounter to ensure the party entering the room, I had a flame jet trap lining the walls of the hallway with the control panel in the room
traps, hazards and unusual terrain are good ways of ensuring the party enter the encounter area for some dynamic tactical maneivering
Interesting discussion by all on the old "find a chokepoint and bunker down" PC strategy. I like all of the suggestions for adapting and dealing with it everyone's mentioned. My own personal response is to avoid hallways and doorways as much as possible. I think about 80% of my encounters take place on a street/in the wilderness somewhere, with only a few in actual real dungeons.
<ramble> Part of it may be that I got my start in roleplaying with Aberrant, part of it may be the DMs I've learned from, part of it may be the fact that I try and set my adventures up more like a movie than a traditional adventure (gotta love a good soaring background picture). A lot of it though is just that I hate fights that revolve around tiny little halls and doorways - I like lots of room for everyone to move and react.
I don't remember exactly where I read this - I think it might have been the 3.5 DMG, but I'm not sure - someone was discussing the difference between dungeon adventures and wilderness adventures, and they said something that stuck with me. The dungeon is popular because it's relatively easy to keep things straight - you know that the players are going to have to go through room A and fight the drow before they can reach either room B (with the lava trap) or room C (with the beholder). It's a natural, organic set of rails that help you have a little more control over the timeline and planning without being forceful. It's also easy to plan out - you just get some graph paper and sketch out the floorplan.
But if you think about it, this article said, you can design an out-door adventure in basically the same way - maybe instead of a locked door and a hallway separating rooms B and C from the entrance, it's a mountain pass patrolled by drow scouts. You can also use fog of war to create "hallways" - the players finish off the drow and set off through the woods - you ask them if they're heading west or north - if they go west, they "travel through the thick rocks and boulders" until the river of lava blocks their path - if they go north, the thick woods eventually open out into a wide clearing with a small ruined tower in it (beholder lair). You can also use time passage and cause and effect as "hallways" in an outdoor adventure. Just remember that the players don't know the map, you do - if they go south instead of west or north, maybe your beholder lair was always to the south.
Of course, you have to have a gentle touch with this, and make sure you never contradict anything you're previously given the players as information. Still, I find outdoor adventures much more fun than dungeons personally. </ramble>
__________________ Rick Reroll -- Deadly Rickster Utility 26 Daily
Choose one: you reroll one die roll you just made and keep the higher result; or the DM rerolls one die roll he just made and keeps the lower result.
Slightly off-topic, but I just read this editorial from Dungeon - Dungeon Editorial: Dungeon #162. In it, Chris Youngs mentions the idea of scrapping xp and just leveling the characters up at thematically appropriate points. Dausuul started doing this as soon as we started playing 4e, and after stalling for a bit, I've joined him. As long as your players know it going in and are okay with it, I've found it to be a much more organic and fun way to go.
__________________ Rick Reroll -- Deadly Rickster Utility 26 Daily
Choose one: you reroll one die roll you just made and keep the higher result; or the DM rerolls one die roll he just made and keeps the lower result.
Slightly off-topic, but I just read this editorial from Dungeon - Dungeon Editorial: Dungeon #162. In it, Chris Youngs mentions the idea of scrapping xp and just leveling the characters up at thematically appropriate points. Dausuul started doing this as soon as we started playing 4e, and after stalling for a bit, I've joined him. As long as your players know it going in and are okay with it, I've found it to be a much more organic and fun way to go.
Seconded. I've been DMing that way for years, and all the DMs with whom I play now use that method, and IMNSHO it's the best way of using XP in the game.
And to tie it back into this thread's topic, one of the significant advantages of untying XP from combat (or other) encounters is that it means the DM doesn't have to spend time and effort on whether the encounters will provide enough XP (or too little/much) for the group. It also ensures that players will not have a metagame response to encounters based on the fact that they gain XP from them, but will simply respond to them as seems most fitting for the situation and the character(s).
__________________ shilsen is broken - Crothian (and this is why)
My Eberron Story Hour. Updated November 12. Almost at the climax!
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA PCs now: Genasi Warlord 5 Human BRV Fighter 5
Posts: 8,000
Hrrmmmm.
Just so this is out there: I'm a player who likes being awarded XP at the end of each session. It shows my PC has done something, and underlines how well my PC has done it. It also allows me as a player to anticipate when my PC will "level", rather than relying on the DM to (apparently arbitrarily) say "you gain a level" whenever he feels like it.
Additionally, since the games I attend are only 4 hours long, and so it takes several sessions to level up, getting XP each time illustrated progress that might otherwise be obscured.
YMMV
__________________ - Nail
Last edited by Nail: Today....just a few minutes ago
Darren from Edmonton, don't read this until after the 17th.
Vayden, my current adventure arc is outdoors, and it plays fine so far (only one session in so far). Basically, the players start at the top of a mountain (they got there via magic portal) and are working their way down to town. It both allows me open terrain AND to set encounters in the order I want. Additionally, it allows me to set appropriate rests for the players, simply but putting significant distance between encounters.
To start, they arrive in the abandoned temple housing the portal, where they faced a couple of giant spiders. They arrive at night, so they camp down. Not long after dawn they are attacked by some goblin scouts, who saw their campfire the night earlier (this is how far we've gotten). Next session, they will travel down the mountain and stumble on a goblin raiding party's base camp
Night falls and they will likely take a second extended rest.
They then proceed down the mountain and discover an ambush being set by the goblins for an expected caravan. The characters attack and turn the ambush. 5 minutes later, the rest of the raiding party stumbles on them, and I have an epic battle. Players victorious (hopefully), they go to town and level up (XP is planned to take them to level 2).
This also bookends nicely with the in world progression I have - the characters are 3.5 characters who are portalled to a world where things work differently, and thus need to "discover" their new abilities. For the battle with the spiders, they got only at wills, over their first rest they figure out how to use encounter powers and can use them against the scouts and base camp, then they rest during which they figure out their dailies, which they can use against the ambush and the rest of the raiding party.
So, I see out door adventures no more difficult than indoor - you just need to plan it as an adventure.
I plan to use a similar setup after they arrive at town and start adventuring in the environs , setting up planned encounters that seem spontaneous from a plot perspective (hopefully ).
As a DM I have been giving out XP for encounters but quest XP rewards give the DM a good place to drop enough XP to give a level when they want. Of course I find the quest rewards are significantly lower than I think they should be.
For example, the start of my campaign had the PCs escorting a grain caravan to a besieged city. They protected the caravan from repeated attacks and broke though the siege lines (in a Road Warrioresque moment by lashing all the wagons together, and suddenly having the equivalent of an 18 wheeler rolling down a hill, through the orc lines, and into town).
So this quest, for my group, was the motivating factor for the first 2-3 sessions, and saved a city. The guidelines for rewards seemed quite a bit too small.
On top of that, I was tired of the PCs being level 1. The quest reward was something like 500 XP (each). That put them well into 2nd.
The group got 3rd in a similar manner, bringing relics from a crypt so the local duke could make himself king. They dinged on the coronation. It was dramatic and appropriate.
Also, my PCs know that they get full XP for defeating an encounter--which doesn't mean that they have to kill every last NPC in the group, not let any get away, or anything like that.
I could see them using a lot of energy in bringing down a runner before he went away and got friends, though.
This thread is wonderful stuff - I'll be passing it on to my DM in the Swordlands game for some advice to him.
__________________ DM of Adventure Path Story Hour (now in Thunderspire Labyrinth!): Ryam Plays Dice - updated 8th June 09 (campaign on indefinite hiatus).
Player in Swordlands Story Hour: Interview with a Fey - updated 15th June 09. News just in - this campaign may be restarting in the near future! Watch this space!
I also have the singular honour of being Rouseketeer #20.
Just so this is out there: I'm a player who likes being awarded XP at the end of each session. It shows my PC has done something, and underlines how well my PC has done it. It also allows me as a player to anticipate when my PC will "level", rather than relying on the DM to (apparently arbitrarily) say "you gain a level" whenever he feels like it.
Additionally, since the games I attend are only 4 hours long, and so it takes several sessions to level up, getting XP each time illustrated progress that might otherwise be obscured.
YMMV
Yep, that's a perfectly valid viewpoint. I try to give a little bit of that same sense of "this is how close you are to next level" with things like: "Okay, if you guys manage to make it out of the valley without dying, that'll probably get you to level 8" or "Hey, you guys are pretty close to levelling, you'll probably level up next week" at the end of a session. Still, XP provides a valuable concrete sense of reward, and that's tough to replace. For me, it works out better without it, but I can certainly see how that might not be the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathew_Freeman
This thread is wonderful stuff - I'll be passing it on to my DM in the Swordlands game for some advice to him.
Flattery will get you everywhere.
Quote:
Vayden, my current adventure arc is outdoors, and it plays fine so far (only one session in so far). Basically, the players start at the top of a mountain (they got there via magic portal) and are working their way down to town. It both allows me open terrain AND to set encounters in the order I want. Additionally, it allows me to set appropriate rests for the players, simply but putting significant distance between encounters.
To start, they arrive in the abandoned temple housing the portal, where they faced a couple of giant spiders. They arrive at night, so they camp down. Not long after dawn they are attacked by some goblin scouts, who saw their campfire the night earlier (this is how far we've gotten). Next session, they will travel down the mountain and stumble on a goblin raiding party's base camp
Night falls and they will likely take a second extended rest.
Sounds pretty solid. I remember the first 3.5 game I DMed, I did much the same thing in reverse - I ship-wrecked the players at the base of a mountain range and used the valleys as "walls" as they crossed the range.
One thing to keep in mind here with what you're outlining, though it won't be as bad at first level - if the players have a reasonable expectation that they're mainly travelling, not fighting, and are only expecting one or two fights a day, you'll likely see some nova-ing as they burn their dailies and destroy your encounters. Be prepared (either with more dangerous encounters or a "second wave" of monsters).
__________________ Rick Reroll -- Deadly Rickster Utility 26 Daily
Choose one: you reroll one die roll you just made and keep the higher result; or the DM rerolls one die roll he just made and keeps the lower result.
One thing to keep in mind here with what you're outlining, though it won't be as bad at first level - if the players have a reasonable expectation that they're mainly travelling, not fighting, and are only expecting one or two fights a day, you'll likely see some nova-ing as they burn their dailies and destroy your encounters. Be prepared (either with more dangerous encounters or a "second wave" of monsters).
Glad you approve, especially since I've never DMed D&D before (well, not since basic D&D when I was in my early teens - as an adult I have only GMed Shadowrun, and most of that was over 10 years ago).
And that's a very good point about them Nova-ing, especially at later levels. At the moment, though, its not something I'm concerned about - indeed, part of the reason why I'm "enforcing" extended rests is to allow myself to get a hang of how difficult an encounter is for my party - they have been roughly n+2 so far, and will be n+4 for the final fight versus the raiding party.
Anyway, I will play it by ear, and keep that concern in mind. For level 2 I have planned a couple of more typical dungeon crawls (one a modified version of the DMG kobold hall adventure), as well a "one off" encounter.
After that they will be trying to sneak under an enemy occupied tunnel complex, so I expect levels 3-5 or so to essentially be one big dungeon crawl... which will pretty much force me to learn the proper pacing and challenges associated with that type of adventuring.
In any case, I would recommend the "extended outside dungeon" concept for other beginner DMs/parties, as it really allows the DM to set whatever pacing he/she feels is appropriate and not be constrained by what might be realistic in a more compact dungeon environment.
Dr. Ruminahui, shrink with a spear
Last edited by Dr_Ruminahui; 14th January 2009 at 02:51 AM..
Reason: correcting spelling, clarity and historical accuracy
One thing to keep in mind here with what you're outlining, though it won't be as bad at first level - if the players have a reasonable expectation that they're mainly travelling, not fighting, and are only expecting one or two fights a day, you'll likely see some nova-ing as they burn their dailies and destroy your encounters. Be prepared (either with more dangerous encounters or a "second wave" of monsters).
Its funny my group--where there is time pressure--doesn't take extended rests, or even short rests--for love or money.
Of course if you know the orcs are going to do bad things just 10 boxes away while you take a short breather, you may charge into battle even if the break is really needed.
That said, the rogue in my group used her daily (Blinding Barrage) on a bunch of minions. I think she got the max possible targets, but I think she will really wish she had that daily back later in the fight.
PS: WTF is Grindspace, exactly? The extra encounters you throw in plots so that players can ding or just really long, tedious combats?
PS: WTF is Grindspace, exactly? The extra encounters you throw in plots so that players can ding or just really long, tedious combats?
Really long, tedious combats. One of the weaknesses of 3e was that you could have really short, swingy combats due to all the save-or-die spells etc. I remember a 3.0 18-20th level published adventure one of my friends ran where we destroyed the big bad dragon final boss (Ashardalon) and his spellcaster lackey in 2 rounds due to a couple of horrible combos we pulled off. That was probably the worst, although the last 3.5 adventure I ran, where the 16th level party destroyed the Tarrasque in 5 rounds and barely took any damage was pretty bad too.
In compensating for this, 4e has introduced the possibility of long, slow combats where the outcome isn't in doubt and everyone gets tired and bored. I've been in a couple of those fights as a player and as a DM, and they're just painful for everyone involved; the published adventures from WotC seem particularly susceptible to slipping into this. However, if you get things going right, you can have brilliant, tension filled fights that go down to the last couple of die-rolls. The main point of this thread is tips from me and others on how to encourage your combats to be of the exciting, thrilling type and to avoid the grindy ones.
__________________ Rick Reroll -- Deadly Rickster Utility 26 Daily
Choose one: you reroll one die roll you just made and keep the higher result; or the DM rerolls one die roll he just made and keeps the lower result.
The first is that we have been playing without XP since 3e. It works great, it allows the DM to tell his story without concerns of levelling to fast or too slow.
The second is a tip to make interesting, dynamic combats. Combats that mix the good guys amongst the bad guys are very memorable. The easiest way to to this is to design encounters where the PCs have to deal with several fronts of bad guys (usually a group from the front and another from the back). It removes the advantage that good tactical players use to position themselves that allows them to control the battlefield at the beginning of the fight. This also further enhances the use of powers that have effects (such as immobilization, blinded, etc) as the players tend to use powers to get away from the bad guy that is beating on them.
You guys who don't use regular XP - have you thought about switching to an "All Quests" system?
__________________ "If people bring so much courage to this world the world has to kill them to break them, so of course it kills them. The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry."
-- Ernest Hemingway, "A Farewell to Arms" Burning Empires:Boldaq Keep on the Shadowfell
My Tip: Give the Players A Goal as the Combat Unfolds
As I've been reading about Grind and experienced it for the first time in my game where 3 hobgoblin Soldiers fled the battlefield shrieking out of sheer boredom, I decided to add some pizzazz to my encounters, and have things going on that aren't just : who should I kill next.
Quick examples: A simultaneous Skill Challenge/Battle to stop a Drow Ritual involving unlocking various arcane circles which had different effects on those who entered into them. The main lock had a confusion effect and the valiant rogue who approach it to disable the device suddenly found himself licking the Statue of Lolth... Young Drow Minions rained down attacks as the PCs alternated between taking them out and trying to stop the ritual and save the person about to be sacrificed. The Minions were actually stopping the ritual from preceeding until the master returned. And as the last one fell the Ritual kicked in again....and with the arcane lock still keeping them out of the circle of sacrificial stones and a massive Shadow Drider being summoned and leeching life from the person they were trying to save....arggh!
I won't go into more details, but needlees to say it was fun for everyone.
Another Example: After walking through a desecrated cementary with an evil looking tree with hanging skulls the PC's were met on the other side as they left, by furious headless skeletons and the heads on the tree inside the cementary on the tree began calling out to them in a strange indeciphrable language. Suddenly the PC's clicked on that the words the skeletons heads were calling out to them were backwards and that as the skeleton bodies pummeled them mindlessly, the heads were begging for help to be returned to their bodies and have their suffering lifted. (heir bodies were obviously unable to enter into the cemetary) The party split, half keeping the bodies at bay and the other half raced back into the haunted cementary to retrieve the heads and bring them back to their bodies, ending their curse and setting them to rest. This ended the combat before a single skeleton died as the PC's decided it wouldn't be wise to kill them. But it was tense, exciting, fun til the end and justly rewarded, more so than if they had simply bashed the skeletons to bits.
I won't treat every single encounter I do this way, but it certainly is something I want to add to many encounters so it's not just: Fight these monsters until they are dead, there is no other way around this until you've killed every last m.@# f.@#$$ one of them.
No matter how interesting the terrain I think other stuff needs to be going on as well, and conflicts can be resolved in other epic ways.
Last edited by jbear; 15th January 2009 at 01:28 AM..
- Crothian (and 
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
