D&D 4th Edition RulesAsk questions about 4th-Edition rules and the like in here. General discussion about 4E or any other game belongs in General RPG Discussion, above.
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I am finding some abilities and powers are hazy on what constitutes the difference between an attack and an attack roll. Here is an example:
A player in my group is currently running a 12th level Divine Oracle Cleric. His 11th level Paragon Path encounter power has the following effect:
"You or an ally who hits the target with an attack can choose to make the attack a critical hit."
If a ranger were to use a power like twin strike (with two attack rolls), how would this work?
A) The ranger rolls an attack and hits; that attack is an auto-crit, and he must then roll the second attack, which is no longer affected by the cleric power, and does not auto-crit.
B) Same as above, but the second attack is still affected by the power, and auto-crits if it hits.
C) The ranger rolls the first attack, hits and autocrits, and the second attack is considered an automatic crit and hit, without having to roll.
Since in 4E a natural 20 is an auto hit, but only crits if the total attack still hits the Defense, I can't decide which one is correct.
I had another example in mind while I was typing the first, but I forgot it already. Can anyone think of another example of this situation or provide some clarity?
When dealing with multiple attack powers, you don't critical on all attacks of the power. One natural 20 does not give the rest of the attacks natural 20.
Therefore, you choose to make one roll of the die to come out a critical. All other attacks before or after the critical are unaffected.
And yes, they really overdid it by making two different things have the same name. However, rarely (if at all) does 'attack' refer to an 'attack power.'
Don't you answer your own question? If there's a second attack...I mean, you use the same word. I think Dalzig pointed out your confusion by trying to equate "power" with attack, despite the fact that a power can have multiple attacks.
What I meant was "make the second attack roll", which, although meaning the same thing, is important to note since this post is about the difference between attack and attack roll. Good pointing that out though, bad wording on my part.
Right, so can you make two attack rolls on one attack? Also, that encounter power aside, if you roll a 20 on the first attack roll does that also give you a crit on the second attack roll of the same power? No, so the cleric power shouldn't be different.
Like I said, though, you're trying to substitute "power" for "attack" in the clerical power description.
Yeah, this came up when 4E first came out. The defintion of what constitutes as an "attack" has multiple meanings/definitions.
For example, casting Wall of Fog on someone could be considered an attack, even though there is no attack roll involved, just an effect.
Then there is the definition of, if it as an Attack entry, it is an attack.
Then there is the definition of, if it is listed as an "Attack Power", the whole power is considered an attack.
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The attack line for twin strike actually says, "two attacks." This implies to me that it is one attack power with, uh, two attacks.
The Divine Oracle power says, "an attack." This implies to me, exactly one attack. (It could also be interpreted to apply to any attack -- using "an" to represent the attack in question. For example, with the phrase, "an artillery monster who engages in melee is a fool," it doesn't mean that somewhere out there is one particular foolish artillery monster, it means every single one. But, for the Divine Oracle power, I think if they meant any and all attacks, they would have said it that way.)
Therefore, I would go with your interpretation A).
The 'attack' terminology problem crops up in a number of places.
For example, the fighter marks a ranger.
While a target is marked, it takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls for any attack that doesn't include you as a target.
The ranger uses Dire Wolverine Strike against the fighter and the wizard; as a Close Burst power, this is one attack that includes the fighter as a target, so the attack roll against the wizard is not penalised, and the fighter doesn't get a Combat Challenge attack on the ranger.
The ranger uses a Twin Strike against the fighter and the wizard; defined as 'two attacks', this is one attack that includes the fighter as a target, and a second attack that does not include the fighter as a target, so the attack against the wizard takes a -2 penalty and the fighter gets his free shot.
But now consider Cold Steel Hurricane (Stormwarden Attack 20). It's a Close Burst power, so in theory it's a single attack that includes multiple targets. But the Attack line specifies "2 attacks per target". So if the fighter and the wizard are in the burst, is it one attack (like Dire Wolverine Strike), or is it four attacks? Do the attacks on the wizard incur the penalty? Does the fighter get his free shot? For a Burst power, you roll damage once and apply it to all the targets you hit... but Cold Steel Hurricane specifies that the damage is 'per attack', and there are two attacks per target, so it damage rolled four times?
Consider Wall of Fire - is it an attack? It's labelled "Wizard Attack 9", but it has no Attack line. If someone is "protected against all attacks" until the end of the turn, can they take damage from Wall of Fire? If the wizard is the target of Invisibility and casts Wall of Fire, does he become visible ("when the target attacks")?
The ranger uses a Twin Strike against the fighter and the wizard; defined as 'two attacks', this is one attack that includes the fighter as a target, and a second attack that does not include the fighter as a target, so the attack against the wizard takes a -2 penalty and the fighter gets his free shot.
We had a similar situation come up in our game.
I was running the "Inside the Kobold Lair" encounter from KotSF. The Goblin has a Dual Axe which allows him to "make a basic melee attack against 2 adjacent targets" as long as he doesn't move. He attacked the fighter and the ranger at which point the fighter wanted his mark to kick in.
We weren't sure how to rule it, because the goblin had included the fighter in his attack but didn't focus the whole attack on him. I got a couple of the more level headed players to check up and as the description of the attack specifies 2 target we ruled that the mark would not kick in in this particular situation.
I don't know if we made the right call or not, but I guess it depends on the situation and the precise wording of the power / attack being used.
I'd go for the fighter mark being an attack ACTION, but the Divine Oracle being an attack ROLL. The most intuitive interpretation of the fighter is that a burst or a blast doesn't activate the mark, but in a burst/blast you make an attack for each target. So or each attack in a burst/blast that doesn't includes the fighter has -2, or each attack action that doesn't include the fighter has -2. This way double attacks like twin strike and solo monsters can can hit the fighter and the wizards without penalty.
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