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Do attacks granted from a Sustained Range Power grant Opportunity Attacks?
I know that when you attack with a ranged power that you are subject to opportunity attacks.
I'm less clear on whether you also grant opportunity attacks in subsequent rounds when you attack again with that power because you are maintaining it via a sustain action.
Specifically the two powers that my players often use in this category are flaming sphere and spiritual hammer.
There is no rules that specifically states whether you do or not. The consensus is that since the PHB says that you provoke an OA when you use a ranged or area power you will not provoke when you sustain because the power has already been used.
Does the PHB actually say that ranged 'powers' provoke OA rather than ranged 'attacks'?
Anyway, since there is no official rule on this I think I'm inclined to rule against the consensus for a number of reasons:
1. You are still using the power to attack even though it has already been "cast". It's just that you are using it in a subsequent round. I.e., they typically say something like Substain {action}: As an {action} you make another attack.
2. Since it says nothing about the rules for that attack (type of, range, etc.), the original characteristics should still apply.
3. There is nothing that excludes attacks generated by sustained powers from provoking OAs.
Last edited by Hazard_53188; 9th January 2009 at 05:36 PM..
Reason: Corrected spelling.
There is no rules that specifically states whether you do or not. The consensus is that since the PHB says that you provoke an OA when you use a ranged or area power you will not provoke when you sustain because the power has already been used.
That's not any consus I was part of, exactly how many people does it take to make a "consensus" anyway.
After the last thread on this, dealing with it in my own game, and trading e-mails back and forth with Customer Service for a few days, I've come to the conclusion that attacking with a power is a form of "Using" the power for this purpose. The power only provokes if it is taking your action to make the attack (powers such as Flaming Sphere and Bigby's Grasping Hand), but does not provoke if it does not take an action on your part for it to attack (Freezing Cloud).
Hypersmurf has a few very long and complicated abstract "What if" scenarios (as he does for most rules issues) that make it sound very ambigous, but this works for me.
✦ Ranged and Area Powers Provoke: If an enemy adjacent to you uses a ranged power or an area power, you can make an opportunity attack against
that enemy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by page 278 Durations
Sustained Durations: An effect that has a “sustain standard,” a “sustain move,” or a “sustain minor” duration lasts as long as you sustain it. Starting on the turn after you create an effect, you sustain the effect by taking the indicated action: a standard action, a move action, or a minor action. (You can sustain an effect once per turn.) Some effects do something, such as attack, when you sustain them. A power’s description indicates what happens when you sustain it or let it lapse. At the end of your turn, if you haven’t spent the required action to sustain the effect, the effect ends.
The reason the consensus is it doesn't is because sustaining a power is not the same as using. Sustain appears to be it's own type of action. Where before you had Standard Action, Ranged or Area you now have Sustain Standard, move or minor.
You of course can rule which ever way you like, but you may end up ensuring that the Wizard is going to gets Shimmering armor so he won't be subjected to OA's left and right. YMMV
I don't think there is any consensus on this. PHB says all range powers provoke opportunity attack, I've houseruled it to all range attack powers provoke opportunity attacks.
I use a more liberal (what I feel is RAI) interpretation. The first attack provokes because you are creating a sphere, weapon, hand, etc. at range and attacking with it. Subsequent rounds, you are simply directing the sphere, weapon, or hand to attack, so I've ruled it doesn't provoke opportunity attacks.
It really doesn't come into play that much since majority of wizards tend to try and stay out of melee any way, so either ruling will work. When in doubt, I tend to err in favor of the players.
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
The reason the consensus is it doesn't is because sustaining a power is not the same as using. Sustain appears to be it's own type of action. Where before you had Standard Action, Ranged or Area you now have Sustain Standard, move or minor.
You of course can rule which ever way you like, but you may end up ensuring that the Wizard is going to gets Shimmering armor so he won't be subjected to OA's left and right. YMMV
I don't think that word (consensus) means what you think it means.
I said that I believe attacking with the power would count at "using" it for this purpose. I said nothing about sustaining it. Sustaining wouldn't provoke, because that's not using the power, just maintaining it.
And when I asked Customer Service, they did say that attacking with it would provoke, which is partly what I'm basing my ruling on.
I don't think that word (consensus) means what you think it means.
I said that I believe attacking with the power would count at "using" it for this purpose. I said nothing about sustaining it. Sustaining wouldn't provoke, because that's not using the power, just maintaining it.
And when I asked Customer Service, they did say that attacking with it would provoke, which is partly what I'm basing my ruling on.
It sounds like I'm rehashing an old debate. Sorry about that.
There are some powers that say something similiar to:
"As a {action} you sustain the effect. As a standard action you make another attack."
There are others that say something similiar to:
"As a {action} you sustain the effect and make another attack."
So would you rule that the first provokes OA but the second does not?
Sorry for not having concrete power examples here since I'm away from my book.
The reason the consensus is it doesn't is because sustaining a power is not the same as using. Sustain appears to be it's own type of action. Where before you had Standard Action, Ranged or Area you now have Sustain Standard, move or minor.
You of course can rule which ever way you like, but you may end up ensuring that the Wizard is going to gets Shimmering armor so he won't be subjected to OA's left and right. YMMV
Those are great quotes thanks and certainly see how that also makes sense.
I don't think that word (consensus) means what you think it means.
I said that I believe attacking with the power would count at "using" it for this purpose. I said nothing about sustaining it. Sustaining wouldn't provoke, because that's not using the power, just maintaining it.
And when I asked Customer Service, they did say that attacking with it would provoke, which is partly what I'm basing my ruling on.
I know what consensus means, but that first sentence you quoted of mine is so poorly written that I'm not even sure how I was trying to use it anymore.
I'm talking specifically about sustaining though, not any extra attack you may make while sustaining. So, specifically pertaining to the sustain action I would say that there is a consensus or "general agreement" if you will.
Now for any attack you may get in the same action as a sustain or after you sustain I agree that there is no consensus. I do agree with Mengu's interpretation though.
I know what consensus means, but that first sentence you quoted of mine is so poorly written that I'm not even sure how I was trying to use it anymore.
I'm talking specifically about sustaining though, not any extra attack you may make while sustaining. So, specifically pertaining to the sustain action I would say that there is a consensus or "general agreement" if you will.
Now for any attack you may get in the same action as a sustain or after you sustain I agree that there is no consensus. I do agree with Mengu's interpretation though.
Then you are correct, there is a consensus that sustaining a power in and of itself does not provoke. Attacking with a power seems to be "whatever the DM thinks is correct" for now.
Right now, my rule of thumb is "if it costs you an action to make the attack, and it's a ranged power, it provokes an Opportunity Attack"
Merely sustaining it doesn't provoke, but if the minor action of sustaining it also includes making an attack, then I would say it provokes.
The conversation I had with CustServ came to a similar conclusion - their justification was that p268's "OAs are triggered by ranged attacks or area attacks" is a separate and different rule to p271's "ranged powers/area powers provoke OAs" and p290's "ranged powers/area powers provoke OAs".
Essentially, according to CS, there are two rules - using a ranged or area powers provokes an OA; and making a ranged or area attack provokes an OA.
So, for example, Curse of the Black Frost provokes an OA when you use it; it is a ranged power and a ranged attack. Sustaining Curse of the Black Frost does not provoke; it merely deals damage without requiring an additional ranged attack.
Summons of Khirad provokes an OA when you use it; it is a ranged power and a ranged attack. Sustaining Summons of Khirad also provokes an OA, because it involves making another ranged attack.
CS did concede that by this logic, a wizard provokes an OA any time someone enters his Freezing Cloud, since this results in an additional area attack, and per CS's interpretation of p268, area attacks provoke OAs. They said they'd pass that on to a developer for possible update or FAQ entry.
CS did concede that by this logic, a wizard provokes an OA any time someone enters his Freezing Cloud, since this results in an additional area attack, and per CS's interpretation of p268, area attacks provoke OAs. They said they'd pass that on to a developer for possible update or FAQ entry.
-Hyp.
That is why I add "if it costs you an action, the attack provokes".
My logic is that if the power makes an attack without you having to spend an action, then you are not actually using the power at that moment (your "use" of the power ws when you spent your action to initiate it).
Hopfully the designers will make the same call when they get around to clarifying it further.
My logic is that if the power makes an attack without you having to spend an action, then you are not actually using the power at that moment.
But if p268 is a separate rule, whether or not you're using the power is irrelevant, because you're not provoking under 'use a power', you're provoking under 'make an attack'.
And if you distinguish between "the wizard attacks' and 'the cloud attacks', then you have cases like Spiritual Weapon, where the cleric sustains the power, but it's the weapon that attacks, not the cleric.
But if p268 is a separate rule, whether or not you're using the power is irrelevant, because you're not provoking under 'use a power', you're provoking under 'make an attack'.
And if you distinguish between "the wizard attacks' and 'the cloud attacks', then you have cases like Spiritual Weapon, where the cleric sustains the power, but it's the weapon that attacks, not the cleric.
-Hyp.
Actually, I would count Spiritual weapon as an exception to my previous statement, since the power specifies that "you conjure a weapon that appears and attacks". So all you would be doing is sustaining it, and the conjuration would attack on it's own.
Last edited by Caliban; 9th January 2009 at 10:04 PM..
There are a number of ranged sustain powers that allow you to move the effect (such as flaming sphere and spiritual weapon).
Does the range defined on the power have any effect on how far away you can move the effect? For example, could a wizard cast a flaming sphere at a range of 10 (it's maximum) and then move it 6 squares to have it out at a range of 16?
There are a number of ranged sustain powers that allow you to move the effect (such as flaming sphere and spiritual weapon).
Does the range defined on the power have any effect on how far away you can move the effect? For example, could a wizard cast a flaming sphere at a range of 10 (it's maximum) and then move it 6 squares to have it out at a range of 16?
No, that's specified in the section on conjurations in the pHB (where it explains how to read the power descriptions). At least one square of the conjuration has to remain within the range of the power, if I remember correctly (I don't have my books in front of me).
The way I've always conceptualized it, the action you take is what provokes an opportunity attack. A move action, a ranged attack, etc. When you're sustaining (e.g. "sustain minor"), you're not taking an action that appears on the list of those provoking OAs. Therefore, you don't provoke one.
But, in looking back over 290, I see it's not that explicit. Still, sustaining definitely does not fit the bill of "uses a ranged power or an area power."
It's the same reason that, tragically, Bleeding Precision won't work with Spitting Cobra Stance.
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