Can sustained conjurations and zones fly?

N8Ball · 18th January 2009, 03:11 AM

OK, so the other night our group was fighting some Harpies and were having a difficult time of it since we're not primarilly a ranged party. The DM was fighting them smartly, maintaining enough altitude so that they could engage with their auras and blast effects, but we couldn't hit them in melee.

After an extended rest when we knew we were going to have to fight them again, the mage asked if Bigby's Icy grasp would bring them down to earth. The DM said that if it hit it would certainly stop them from moving the required 2 to maintain flight, but questioned aloud if the "move" ability of the hand allowed it to fly up to them and attack.

While were debating that subject, he also asked if stinking cloud could be moved to altitude to damage them.

The DM ruled that either effect could be summoned at altitude, but neither had the ability to fly since their movement was not listed with any special caveats, so the stinking cloud would get only one attack before it drifted to the ground and the hand would get one attack as well and if it missed it would also fall to the ground.

We beat them, but our party of 6 took a pretty good beating from only 2 Harpies. (Aura 20?!?!) What do you guys think? and what about other sustained effects like Flaming Sphere?

deadsmurf · 18th January 2009, 04:58 AM

Pretty sure there are no rules for this, and your DM's ruling seems about right.
Now for fun/coolness I would totally allow it based on each spell. Stinking cloud? sure it can fly. Bigby's Icy Grasp? Sure it's a floating hand. Flaming Sphere... no way, it normally gets about by rolling.
It's cool and it makes sense? Sure.

Toriel · 18th January 2009, 06:38 AM

There is nothing in the rules that prevent a power from being used vertically instead of horizontally. Should a ranger using a bow be only permitted to fire at targets on the ground only? Why would a magic spell be treated differently?

Being a DM, I would certainly permit it. The authors clearly state that for this edition, the DM should look at saying yes to most things players want to do.

Ahglock · 18th January 2009, 07:48 PM

I'd rule it based on the special effect of the spell. And I'd do pretty much what Toriel suggested.

Got to say its a corner case but it makes me appreciate magic missile a bit more. Yeesh, 20 square aura. Other than the ranger I'd hate to see my parties odds of hitting with a ranged basic attack.

jodyjohnson · 19th January 2009, 03:19 PM

Harpies are clumsy flyers and take -4 to attacks and all defenses while flying so hitting them at long range for javelin still nets you +2 (-4 to defense, -2 to hit for range). Plus other than the aura, their attacks would be low.

N8Ball · 19th January 2009, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jodyjohnson

Harpies are clumsy flyers and take -4 to attacks and all defenses while flying so hitting them at long range for javelin still nets you +2 (-4 to defense, -2 to hit for range). Plus other than the aura, their attacks would be low.

Hmmm. Great catch Jody, I don't think any of us (including the DM) were aware of this. That will definitely make a big difference when we engage the next pair of Harpies.

I'd still like to be prepared if/when we engage another type of flying monster though, since apart from clumsy flyers, it seems to be our achilles heel.

Nail · 19th January 2009, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N8Ball

I'd still like to be prepared if/when we engage another type of flying monster though, since apart from clumsy flyers, it seems to be our achilles heel.

And the solution is: Missile weapons!

Simple.

As far as your original question: It sure would seem as if a magical floating hand could go up, eh? What, exactly, is pulling it down to near the ground (within 1 square) and yet not forcing it to rest on the ground (as in "the hand lies on the ground")?

Bagpuss · 19th January 2009, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toriel

There is nothing in the rules that prevent a power from being used vertically instead of horizontally.

Well the rules on forced movement probably mean you can't use the hand to drag someone from the sky to the floor. Although there is nothing to stop you summoning the hand at altitude.

N8Ball · 19th January 2009, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nail

And the solution is: Missile weapons!

Simple.

Crap, we didn't think of that!
We were just using insults and bad names until they collapsed and expired from excessive self pity.

It was fun to make them cry though.

Really though, the fighter and Warlord were restricted to Ranged basic attacks (and then running to find their weapons when they threw their last hammer/javelin), the ranger and Cleric were stuck with at-wills, and the Warlock and Wizard were the only ones allowed to use honest-to-goodness encounter and Daily powers. I'd say we were pretty nerfed from our normal potential.

The "clumsy" finding solves this immediate issue, but what about other flying artillery and controllers that can just stay 4-6 squares up and out of range of most of our powers.

Nail · 19th January 2009, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N8Ball

Crap, we didn't think of that!

Yup.

It's those simple things that you miss..... <jk>

Sadly, I know of more than a few players who have neglected to equip their PCs with missile weapons. It's doesn't help that there are few ranged powers.

...other than insults. Insults work.

Nail · 19th January 2009, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bagpuss

Although there is nothing to stop you summoning the hand at altitude.

What about another conjuration that doesn't "fly" as obviously as a floating hand, though? Say: Flaming Sphere?

Ahglock · 20th January 2009, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jodyjohnson

Harpies are clumsy flyers and take -4 to attacks and all defenses while flying so hitting them at long range for javelin still nets you +2 (-4 to defense, -2 to hit for range). Plus other than the aura, their attacks would be low.

Even with that most of my party would miss a lot, or just get a few shots before they ran out of ammo. Outside the ranger Dex just isn't there so bows and other easy ammo weapons are a miss, and when it comes to strength weapons well there are only so many you can carry. Yup, I'd hate to see my party face these.

I'm feeling a Muhahahah moment coming on.

nittanytbone · 20th January 2009, 05:57 AM

This is why every STR based character should purchase a +1 javelin around the mid-heroic tier when such things become affordable, and maybe consider upgrading it to a +2 Dynamic Javelin a few levels later. Never worry about running out of ammo again.

evilbob · 20th January 2009, 03:25 PM

Technically, none of those spells have fly speeds, nor do they mention anything about flying when they are moved. So your DM's ruling (can cast high, but it floats down) seems reasonable.

On the other hand, 4.0 breaks down quickly when fighting in 3 dimensions. The DMG says a little bit about movement while flying, but I couldn't find anything about power use while flying.

Personally, I would probably say that zones can be moved up but conjurations couldn't - just because conjurations "occupy" a square and therefore seem to have more actual weight to them than zones, which are basically just areas of effect (that are often centered higher than the ground anyway). I don't have a RAW citation to back that, however.

Nail · 20th January 2009, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evilbob

On the other hand, 4.0 breaks down quickly when fighting in 3 dimensions.

That's the key observation.

Since there's no rule saying you can't target a conjuration up, you can do so.

evilbob · 20th January 2009, 08:44 PM

I'm guessing you're saying you can move a conjuration's target square up, right?

Normally movement is only listed as "movement" and relies on the thing moving to move according to its listed movement (speed) type(s). I would say the issue could be stated as there are no movement (speed) type(s) listed for zones/conjurations.

Nail · 20th January 2009, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evilbob

I'm guessing you're saying you can move a conjuration's target square up, right?

I don't see any reason why you couldn't target a square above "ground".

Quote:

Originally Posted by evilbob

Normally movement is only listed as "movement" and relies on the thing moving to move according to its listed movement (speed) type(s). I would say the issue could be stated as there are no movement (speed) type(s) listed for zones/conjurations.

Agreed.

If you can move the power's effect, the power tells you how far you can move it. So why not up?

Conjurations (IIRC) don't have a "speed", so creature movement rules do not necessarily apply. For example, does a Bigby's Hand have to pay a penalty to move over difficult terrain? Can a Flaming Sphere run? Etc.

If anyone's got some RAW to douse this with, lemme know! (And let's spare the "whatever your DM says" business, 'cause "Yea, we know that.")

Mahali · 20th January 2009, 09:22 PM

Since 4E pretty much ignores the 3rd dimension CS response was the powers go all the way up.

Sounds stupid, but so does not allowing for 3 dimension combat in the game.

I have no problem allowing an effect like Stinking Cloud to be moved vertically, Bigby's is questionable, but I'd allow it too.