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I think the RAW on close blast with thrown magic weapons is ambiguous, and I’m waffling on how to rule this. It’s clear that with non magical weapons you need to throw a different weapon for each target:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PH271 Close Blast: Multiple Attack Rolls but One Damage Roll
…if you’re using thrown weapons, you need one for each target.
The issue is what happens with magic thrown weapons where it says:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PH232 Thrown Weapons:
Any magic light thrown or heavy thrown weapon, …, automatically returns to its wielder’s hand after a ranged attack with the weapon is resolved.
This is clear as mud, because who the heck knows when an attack is resolved? The terminology is very loose in the PH. It could mean after the throw or after the entire attack.
I think the situation is ambiguous enough I could rule either way, but I’m trying to go with the RAI here. So on one hand I don’t want to let the rogue throw his one vicious dagger up to nine times because that seems counter to the intention of the Close Blast rules for thrown weapons. On the other hand Blinding Barrage is a daily, while on the third hand Blinding *is* a pretty nasty condition.
Have I missed something? How many daggers do you think the rogue needs and why?
Technically a close blast is not a ranged attack, so the rule about the magic dagger returning after a ranged attack doesn't apply.
That being said, I have yet to see a DM actually run it that way.
From what I've heard, it's generally been concluded that the intent is to treat it like a series of ranged attacks that don't provoke, and you only need one magical thrown weapon (it returns to your hand fast enough for you to throw it at the next target in the blast).
Let me phrase it this way: If this power did require more than one magic weapon, how often do you think it'd be used? And how would you hold four or seven daggers in such a way as to get to use them all?
To me the intention is clear: the rogue should not have to carry more magical weapons than any other class (i.e. "about one").
The answer thus comes naturally: one dagger is enough. Let the rogue use his magic dagger against each and all targets in his daily.
Yes, this usage stretches credulity. But then again, so does a dozen other powers. Best not to mix believability and D&D, eh?
I'm pretty sure the intention is that you need one throwing weapon per target.
For what it's worth, the FAQ says this: 14. I am using a magical thrown weapon as part of an area of effect power. If I am attacking multiple enemies within that area, do I need multiple weapons, or will one suffice?
One is enough in this case. Magical thrown weapons return to you after each attack, so you’ll be able to use it against each enemy as part of using your power.
As Caliban notes, of course, this doesn't agree with what the rules say, but it's a point to throw in to the discussion.
Hmm .. the shuriken thing could be tricky if they come in enchanted packs of 5.
I buy a pack of shuriken .. for the same price as a +1 weapon, and I hand 1 to each of my friends.
Do they all return to them?
How about if the pack has a daily power?
I guess it's fixable by deciding that you can't split the pack up, and the pack has one daily power in total.
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Normal thrown weapons are sold in packs (=you get more than one for the price) just like ammo.
Enchanted thrown weapons are always sold individually. Otherwise the way to the cheese described by Danceofmasks lies wide open.
WotC really needs to issue errata along lines similar to this:
Thrown Weapons: Any magic thrown weapon, automatically returns to its wielder’s hand after each attack with the weapon is resolved, allowing the user to use it for all attacks granted by eligible powers (for which the weapon can be used), including all multi-target powers (such as blasts or area attacks).
Unless they do, there simply is no way to persuade those among you who believe otherwise this is the intent. Specifically, how the "throwing" auto-property only works for ranged attacks is an error that is especially urgent to fix.
I was under the impression that rogue was one of the last classes to be developed, which means that(like the ranger, it seems), it may not have been playtested or fluffed as thoroughly as other classes.
In all honesty, Blinding barrage probably shouldn't be a weapon power at all. I think I'd be more comfortable with it if the rogue threw poison dust in people's eyes or something and it did d6's of damage and had the poison keyword like a wizard power might.
Because the power really only seems to make sense with a magic weapon where you do some amazing crap like throw a magic shuriken in a circle and slice everyone's eyes open or something.
Let me phrase it this way: If this power did require more than one magic weapon, how often do you think it'd be used? And how would you hold four or seven daggers in such a way as to get to use them all?
To me the intention is clear: the rogue should not have to carry more magical weapons than any other class (i.e. "about one").
The answer thus comes naturally: one dagger is enough. Let the rogue use his magic dagger against each and all targets in his daily.
Yes, this usage stretches credulity. But then again, so does a dozen other powers. Best not to mix believability and D&D, eh?
My take is that the designers simply failed to consider the ramifications of their own rulings. This was the case with abilities in 3e such as storm of throws, which was all but unusable unless you took quickdraw (because otherwise, you couldn't draw new projectiles to chuck quickly enough). Throwing weapons only returned to your hand at the start of your next turn, so you needed several copies of said weapon. So you found yourself having to lug around dozens of spare throwing weapons.
So it is possible that the power was never meant to be used with magic weapons. Your rogue will just have to lug around several mundane daggers for throwing.
I agree that simply ruling the magic dagger returns to your hand quickly enough to be thrown again is probably the quickest and best solution there is (it still won't break the ability, and keeps the players happy), but I do think it is a little arrogant to claim that the designers' intention is crystal clear, considering their track record on 3e.
No, what I mean is that I can't imagine that any power is ever meant to be usable with mundane weapons only.
Equally, I can't imagine that the rogue is meant to be forced into buying three or six copies of his preferred magic weaponry (thus emptying his pockets) just to be able to use his standard powers.
The only way I can grok this power is if you stop trying to make sense of it for a mo' and simply start out with the assumption one magical weapon is enough.
Working "backwards" from there, I arrive at the conclusion the way magic thrown weaponry works needs errata to include all kinds of attacks, including close blasts.
(Basically, all other alternatives suck. Either they make the power suck, the rogue suck or they just plain suck )
This is what I consider "clear" in this context: there is only one explanation that does not suck nearly as heavily as the rest. In fact, as you mention, allowing a single weapon does not make the power break. It just rescues it from being unusably weak...
No, what I mean is that I can't imagine that any power is ever meant to be usable with mundane weapons only.
For whatever it is worth, I couldn't imagine the US economy once being centered around making loans to people who couldn't afford to repay them. I still can't.
Q: Rogue area attack powers such as Blinding Barrage work with the crossbow, sling, or light thrown weapons. Sling and hand crossbow are "Load Free". Normal crossbow is not. p217 says "If a power allows you to hit multiple targets, the additional load time is accounted for in the power." This doesn't appear to apply to light throwing weapons. If shuriken or daggers are used with Blinding Barrage, are they limited by the requirement to use a minor action to draw each item, making Quick Draw a necessity to use these items with this type of power?
A: If you are using a Magic throwing weapon, it will hit all the targets and return to your hand (yeah Magic is that awesome). If you are using mundane throwing weapons, you will need one for each attack roll made and you will need three Quick draw feat to be able to draw and use them all.
Thanks for the thoughts, guys. I have to say I'm still a bit ambivalent about the ruling on this one. My intent was to run the WotC adventure path as close to RAW (RAI) as possible to see what the rules were before I did made up any real house rules for my own campaign - since when I first saw 4E I was very concerned about a lot of the rules. Yet, after I actually played in some DDXP prerelease scenarios online I found out that things weren't at all like I had envisioned them – in a positive way.
I’ve been around too long to not to be skeptical of Customer Service answers. They are often OK but often they are too erratic to give credence to. It’s just a numbers game with them. If they make 100,000 answers you know a certain percentage of them are going to be wrong just because they are human.
Sadly, I think RAW and possibly even RAI say you should throw a weapon per target. I think that by RAW a thrown weapon doesn’t come back from a close blast, though I think by RAI any time you throw a magic weapon which has a range value, it comes back. Customer support disagrees on the multiple weapons, and agrees on the return. In a case where I could go either way, I like to go with the players if I don’t think it breaks game balance.
I think the most convincing argument was the one about did I really want to require the rogue to have multiple magic weapons to avoid a drop off in to hit bonuses? This is a valid question and while we all know that in a small close blast you have to be fortunate (or set it up) to have a third or more of the effect square filled with enemies. Honestly I don’t think it matters if I required him to throw a weapon per target at low levels but I can see the problem at higher levels. I also look at other close blasts by other classes with implements and finally I think about the mild hassle of lots of attack and damage rolls with different values because the bonus is different for different weapons.
I’m going to allow the rogue to use one magical dagger, and be mildly annoyed with the designers and possibly the editors of the PH and be mildly surprised that I think Customer Service got it right this time.
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