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So I ran the big Wraith fight from SoW: Shadow Rift of Umbraforge, aka the mid-boss fight.
In short I like the tactics the status effects played on my players, but an entire fight with 6 insubstantial enemies (all the time) was more than annoying to them.
What are people's thoughts on the wraith specifically?
Was it just a poor encounter design having 6 insub monsters?
I almost want a mechanism to break their insub until the start of their next turn.
So I ran the big Wraith fight from SoW: Shadow Rift of Umbraforge, aka the mid-boss fight.
In short I like the tactics the status effects played on my players, but an entire fight with 6 insubstantial enemies (all the time) was more than annoying to them.
What are people's thoughts on the wraith specifically?
Was it just a poor encounter design having 6 insub monsters?
I almost want a mechanism to break their insub until the start of their next turn.
Thoughts?
I don't know... insubstantial doesn't seem like that much of an annoyance. All it really means is that the players do half damage, same as the creature having double hit points.
Now I don't know what level this took place at but if you want to be really annoying have the wraiths float over the player character's heads (since they can fly.) Have them attack the melee people then shift up out of melee range every other round. Better yet, I think they can phase... so have them drifting in and out of solid objects during the fight.
I find I must do everything in my power to make my encounters as difficult as possible. My players are too mechanically adept to cut them any slack.
It was a level 5 encounter (5 wraiths, plus one mad wraith) against a party of 5 fairly optimized level 5s (cleric, paladin, fighter, wizard, ranger). It just seemed to drag on forever, probably due to the stacking of weakened + insubstantial.
That said I'm suggesting the alchemical wizard pick up "Ghoststrike Oil" formula soon since there will probably be more insub monsters.
The other thing about insubstantial wraiths is that it doubles the effectiveness of their regeneration.
If you wanted to make insubstantial less of an issue, what I'd suggest is a magic item (say a wand) which allows force effects to deal full damage to insubstantial creatures (in the similar but lesser way to the paragon feat which does full damage +1d10 with all force attacks).
BTW, since you have a paladin and a cleric, their radiant damage (which does an extra 5 damage AND switches off their regeneration for a turn) should make the wraiths less of a fearsome foe.
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"It makes as much sense as having Batman kill his parents and then go on to fight mutants from another dimension." - Rykion
Radiant damage does 2 additional damage to a Vulnerable 5 radiant damage foe.
Insubstantial foes are nasty. I just ran an encounter with a Moon Wraith (high AC, hovering, phasing, insubstantial, Regen 5). I predetermined a condition that would do 20 damage to it when met because I knew it would be tough.
The other thing about insubstantial wraiths is that it doubles the effectiveness of their regeneration.
If you wanted to make insubstantial less of an issue, what I'd suggest is a magic item (say a wand) which allows force effects to deal full damage to insubstantial creatures (in the similar but lesser way to the paragon feat which does full damage +1d10 with all force attacks).
BTW, since you have a paladin and a cleric, their radiant damage (which does an extra 5 damage AND switches off their regeneration for a turn) should make the wraiths less of a fearsome foe.
Yeah, the trick with the radiant damage and the Divine characters was they're both melee oriented. The Paladin effectively used his mark, and holy strike. The Cleric, OTOH, wasn't nearly as effective with the laser.
Radiant damage does 2 additional damage to a Vulnerable 5 radiant damage foe.
Insubstantial foes are nasty. I just ran an encounter with a Moon Wraith (high AC, hovering, phasing, insubstantial, Regen 5). I predetermined a condition that would do 20 damage to it when met because I knew it would be tough.
I'm thinking of upping the vulnerable radiant to 10 on wraiths / specters, just so it effectively does an extra 5 damage. I don't necessarily like the fact that vulnerability is affected by insubstantiality. That said for the on / off insub. monsters, I don't want to eliminate the 1/2 dmg. I think I'll rule that for wraiths / spectres their Vulnerable goes up to 10. Just to reward players for actually trying to use the weakness against them.
So I ran the big Wraith fight from SoW: Shadow Rift of Umbraforge, aka the mid-boss fight.
In short I like the tactics the status effects played on my players, but an entire fight with 6 insubstantial enemies (all the time) was more than annoying to them.
What are people's thoughts on the wraith specifically?
Was it just a poor encounter design having 6 insub monsters?
I almost want a mechanism to break their insub until the start of their next turn.
Thoughts?
I had the same problem with that fight. It was exacerbated by the wraiths attacking reflex and weakening on a hit: not only were the defenders attacking insubstantial monsters, they were usually doing half damage to begin with. The Seething Wraith also seemed to have too many HP, but I cut them down before the fight.
The Umbraforge Tower ended up with a similar problem but a different cause: the designer seemed to be very fond of throwing level 8 soldiers at the level 5 party. Another trip into grindspace. I'm starting to think that soldiers are a role they didn't really need.
My guess is that this module was an early 4e effort by the author. A lot of what we know now about 4e fights may not have been known in the playtest.
My suggestion would just be to House Rule that the vulnerability is not nerfed by the insubstantial if you feel it's an issue. It's not a huge thing and gives the paladin and/or cleric a chance to shine. It won't dramatically nerf the undead defenses either and keep it a challenge still.
Not every fight should be three rounds of tactical PC beatdown.
Insubstantial seems like a pretty useless rule to have. All attacks do half damage (except some specific ghost-killing weapons that nobody has) but as a result, they've got a lot fewer hitpoints than a normal monster.
I just doubled their hitpoints and forgot about insubstantial.
I guess there might be rules repercussions (for example there might be a power out there that says "if you do more than 10 damage on your attack, the enemy is knocked prone" that would be affected, but I haven't heard of one) but it seems a lot easier than reminding my players to do half damage every time they hit.
Oh yes, if you want to be a rat bastard GM with wraiths, hide a mad wraith in a wall near the players. They can't hurt it, but the aura still gets them.
Oh yes, if you want to be a rat bastard GM with wraiths, hide a mad wraith in a wall near the players. They can't hurt it, but the aura still gets them.
Wouldn't the aura require line of effect, which would be blocked by being inside the wall?
I didn't even think Vulnerability applied to the insubstantial power. I would rule that vulnerability eats through insubstantial.
The fact that the Wraiths weaken is rather brutal. However, wraiths should have fewer HP than a normal 5th level lurker because they are insubstantial.
The real brutal aspect is that the Mad Wraith dazes anyone in its aura, and wraith can use combat advantage to eat their face.
One thing that I find annoying about wraiths, from a DM perspective, is that I can't think of a good way to capitalize on the Phasing power. I want it to be useful for the monster in a fight, but I don't see an affective way to implement it. Partially because monsters can't end their movement in a solid object, so it can't shift in there, so something must be useful.
Oh yes, if you want to be a rat bastard GM with wraiths, hide a mad wraith in a wall near the players. They can't hurt it, but the aura still gets them.
Phasing (MM, page 282):
Quote:
A phasing creature ignores difficult terrain and can move through obstacles and other creautres, but it must end its movement in an unoccupied square.
I didn't even think Vulnerability applied to the insubstantial power. I would rule that vulnerability eats through insubstantial.
The fact that the Wraiths weaken is rather brutal. However, wraiths should have fewer HP than a normal 5th level lurker because they are insubstantial.
The real brutal aspect is that the Mad Wraith dazes anyone in its aura, and wraith can use combat advantage to eat their face.
One thing that I find annoying about wraiths, from a DM perspective, is that I can't think of a good way to capitalize on the Phasing power. I want it to be useful for the monster in a fight, but I don't see an affective way to implement it. Partially because monsters can't end their movement in a solid object, so it can't shift in there, so something must be useful.
For the vulnerability / insub question, it's actually been addressed by WotC. Plus I wouldn't want to blanketly state that vulnerability is applied after insubstantial reduction because some monsters only get insub for short durations. It's just apparently Wraiths and Spectres (currently) that have it on all the time. I think in these cases I'll double their vulnerability to Radiant to 10, netting the same result as applying vulnerable after insub reduction.
For phasing, have blocking obstacles the party has to move around, but the wraiths can just go around. For example, in a multi-room encounter, the party may try to use a doorway as a choke point. The wraiths ignore the doorway and phase through the walls.
My suggestion would just be to House Rule that the vulnerability is not nerfed by the insubstantial if you feel it's an issue. It's not a huge thing and gives the paladin and/or cleric a chance to shine. It won't dramatically nerf the undead defenses either and keep it a challenge still.
Not every fight should be three rounds of tactical PC beatdown.
I'm strongly thinking of a houserule here; insubstantial does not apply to any damage you are vulnerable to. It feels kind of pointless to halve EVERYTHING; why not simply double their hp instead? I did play the untyped clerical spells in 3.5 like this - such as Piercing Light.
But this might make undead combat too swingy; a party with no way to inflict radiant damage might be completely overwhelmed.
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Rechan, when it says that phasing creatures can move through objects, walls, and creatures, but must end their move in an unoccupied square, they just mean unoccupied by creatures. They can totally end their move in a wall. Just, presumably, not all of them in the same square of wall. It's like how any creature can move through allied squares, but has to end its move in an empty square.
Rechan, when it says that phasing creatures can move through objects, walls, and creatures, but must end their move in an unoccupied square, they just mean unoccupied by creatures. They can totally end their move in a wall. Just, presumably, not all of them in the same square of wall. It's like how any creature can move through allied squares, but has to end its move in an empty square.
I interpreted it pretty much the same as Rechan because if I didn't, whenever I run a encounter with wraiths, I would be sorely tempted to make them end their moves in a wall when they are bloodied, and wait until their regeneration healed them to full before sending them after the PCs again. Talk about annoying and grindy!
But personally I would never reduce the vulnerability damage on a creature, even if it was insubstancial, if its vulnerable it always takes the damage. This is my interpretation of the spirit of the rules (no wraith puns intended ).
If an insubstancial creature with vulnerability 10 takes 25 damage surely it should be:
25 halved = 12 damage, check to see if it is vulnerable (yes) +10 damage = 22 damage.
If I was designing an encounter full of insubstantial regenerating weakening monsters, I'd knock off 10-15 hit points (that's essentially 20-60 damage depending on how you look at it) from each of them (or some of them based on their roles).
For insubstantial soldiers, I'm often tempted to knock a point off their defenses too.
But I'd say it's best not to design many such encounters. For encounters against insubstantial creatures I try to work in some hazards and traps into the encounter to increase the difficulty, rather than more monsters. This keeps tensions high enough, but the party can focus their damage on the undead while trying to avoid/disable the other obstacles.
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I interpreted it pretty much the same as Rechan because if I didn't, whenever I run a encounter with wraiths, I would be sorely tempted to make them end their moves in a wall when they are bloodied, and wait until their regeneration healed them to full before sending them after the PCs again. Talk about annoying and grindy!
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