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Old 14th February 2009, 11:14 AM   #1 (permalink)
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fissionessence Goblin Sharpshooter (Lvl 2)
Dragonborn Druids breathe fire in wildshape form?

Not really an optimal build considering no ability score bonus overlap with the druid's key scores, but . . .

Wildshape says, "While you are in beast form, you can't use attack, utility, or feat powers that lack the beast form keyword, although you can sustain such powers." No reference to not being able to use racial powers. The obvious one you can use is Elven Accuracy, but a shadar-kai or eladrin can teleport, a minotaur can turn into a small bull (or big weasel) and charge, and the coolest one IMO is that a dragonborn can breathe fire from his tiger form (or wolf, or hyena, or bear, etc.) The weirdest is the doppleganger, who can wildshape, then use Change Shape to look like "any Medium humanoid, including a unique individual" . . . while still being wildshaped!

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Old 14th February 2009, 11:30 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Alisair Longreach Goblin Sharpshooter (Lvl 2)
A Dragonborn Druid cannot use his breathweapon in beastform because:

1. It is a racial attack power

2. The Dragon Breath power do not have the Beastform keyword.

3. It is cheese that deserves a smackdown.
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Old 14th February 2009, 11:48 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Runestar Hobgoblin Soldier (Lvl 3)
What's overpowering about being able to use your breath weapon while wildshaped? Rules conflicts aside, I am not quite seeing the imbalance...
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Old 14th February 2009, 11:51 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alisair Longreach View Post
A Dragonborn Druid cannot use his breathweapon in beastform because:

1. It is a racial attack power
What's a racial attack power? I can't find any such thing in the PHB. Dragonborn breath attacks are a Dragonborn Racial Power according to their stat-block.

Quote:
2. The Dragon Breath power do not have the Beastform keyword.

3. It is cheese that deserves a smackdown.
It's a racial power. Why is it cheesy for him to retain its use? Is it equally cheesy for a beastform halfling to use Second Chance?
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Old 14th February 2009, 12:14 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Fede Kobold Slinger (Lvl 1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alisair Longreach View Post
A Dragonborn Druid cannot use his breathweapon in beastform because:

1. It is a racial attack power

2. The Dragon Breath power do not have the Beastform keyword.

3. It is cheese that deserves a smackdown.
1&2) It has the attack line, so i'd say it's an attack and it lacks the beast keyword, so i'd say that by RAW you can't use it while beastformed. But...

3) i totally disagree. Cheese? why? If (as other posters have said) an halfling or an elf can use their racial, why couldn't the dragonborn use it's own? It could also be thematic, for example, imagine a dragonborn druid shapeshifted in a snake beastform using a poison breath
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Old 14th February 2009, 02:32 PM   #6 (permalink)
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1&2) It has the attack line, so i'd say it's an attack and it lacks the beast keyword, so i'd say that by RAW you can't use it while beastformed.
That's not what defines an attack power. Attack powers are distinct from utility and racial powers in that they have the word Attack in their power type description.

The only Attack powers are those granted to you by your class as At-Will, Encounter and Daily powers.
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Old 14th February 2009, 03:42 PM   #7 (permalink)
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andarilhor Goblin Sharpshooter (Lvl 2)
As others had said: he can't use the power because it don't have the beast form keyword, but nothing a feat cannot fix!
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Old 14th February 2009, 04:30 PM   #8 (permalink)
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If I look at page 15 in the PHB I don't think it counts as an attack, utility or feat power. Therefore I believe it is allowed by RAW.

And I'd allow it even if it wasn't, it's not cheese at all.
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Old 14th February 2009, 06:24 PM   #9 (permalink)
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reticent Kobold Slinger (Lvl 1)
"While you are in beast form, you can't use attack, utility, or feat powers that lack the beast form keyword, although you can sustain such powers."

Isn't English an awfully imprecise language? The strictest reading of that means when wildshaped the only powers you can use are feat powers that have the beast form keyword. Clearly that isn't the intent though.

Regardless, racial powers seem to be separate from attack powers even when the racial power is used to attack. Consider for example the Druid power Flame Seed which is a "Druid Attack 1" vs Dragon Breath which is a "Dragonborn Racial Power". Both are cosmetically similar attacks that lack the Beast Form key word but only one of them is expressly an "Attack" power.

I believe the intent of allowing racial powers to function in wildshape is based on the understanding that races are balanced with the racial powers in mind. Denying racial power access to a wildshape focused Druid would put even more emphasis on race selection with regards to character effectiveness compared with other the classes.
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Old 14th February 2009, 06:47 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by reticent View Post
"While you are in beast form, you can't use attack, utility, or feat powers that lack the beast form keyword, although you can sustain such powers."

Isn't English an awfully imprecise language? The strictest reading of that means when wildshaped the only powers you can use are feat powers that have the beast form keyword. Clearly that isn't the intent though.
That would be an inaccurate reading. The sentence is fairly simple - it refers to attack, utility and feat powers, and then it pares down the selection still further, to the subset of those particular powers that also lack the beast form keyword, saying that those powers may not be used in beast form, though they may be sustained.

Aside from that small subset of powers, the sentence doesn't mention any other powers at all, and therefore it has no bearing on whether other powers may or may not be used whilst in beast form.
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Old 14th February 2009, 07:06 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I'd allow it, whether it was RAW or not. Squirrels breathing fire? Hell yes.
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Old 14th February 2009, 08:40 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Attack powers are at will, encounter, and daily powers gained at levels 1, 3, 5, 7 etc.

Racial powers are not attack powers. Elven druids can use elven accuracy, dwarf druids can use second wind as a minor action, halfling druids can use second chance, and yes, dragonborn druids can breath dragon breath.
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Old 15th February 2009, 04:22 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Syrsuro Goblin Sharpshooter (Lvl 2)
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Attack powers are at will, encounter, and daily powers gained at levels 1, 3, 5, 7 etc.

Racial powers are not attack powers. Elven druids can use elven accuracy, dwarf druids can use second wind as a minor action, halfling druids can use second chance, and yes, dragonborn druids can breath dragon breath.
So, just to be clear:

You would also rule that a wildshaped Minotaur Druid (lets say, in panther form) can use Goring Charge:

Goring Charge Minotaur Racial Power
You charge the enemy and gore it with your horns.

I am, at present, conflicted. Some powers (e.g. Elven Accuracy) seem to make sense when wildshaped, others (Goring Charge) do not. The breath attack falls somewhere in between - it makes more sense to me than the charge, but not as much as Elven Accuracy.

In the absence of greater clarity, I will probably allow the less plausible powers on the theory that they are part of a balance that includes the more plausible powers and that to deny one implies I should deny all.

But I'm not so sure that is the intent.

Carl

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Old 15th February 2009, 04:33 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Also, on the subject of the minotaur ... the wild shape power doesn't turn you into a specific animal. So, a minotaur that has wildshaped may still have horns of some sort. It could end up not making sense, but requires the person using the open ended flavor of the wild shape to deliberately make it not fit with the flavor of the goring charge.
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Old 15th February 2009, 05:04 AM   #15 (permalink)
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fissionessence Goblin Sharpshooter (Lvl 2)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syrsuro View Post
So, just to be clear:

You would also rule that a wildshaped Minotaur Druid (lets say, in panther form) can use Goring Charge:

Goring Charge Minotaur Racial Power
You charge the enemy and gore it with your horns.

I am, at present, conflicted. Some powers (e.g. Elven Accuracy) seem to make sense when wildshaped, others (Goring Charge) do not. The breath attack falls somewhere in between - it makes more sense to me than the charge, but not as much as Elven Accuracy.

In the absence of greater clarity, I will probably allow the less plausible powers on the theory that they are part of a balance that includes the more plausible powers and that to deny one implies I should deny all.

But I'm not so sure that is the intent.

Carl

I would totally allow that. And that's before even considering that players can change the names and flavor of any of their powers, describing it any way they choose. A minotaur player (completely off the wildhsape issue for a second) could describe his goring charge as a flying kick instead. So, double yes; I would allow goring charge in Medium weasel form.

Plus, there's what WalterKovacs mentioned. The wildhsape form chosen could easily have horns . . . or the black panther the minotaur's in the shape of could temporarily grow horns just for the goring charge attack.

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Old 15th February 2009, 06:47 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Horns on a cat? That's preposterous!?

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Old 15th February 2009, 07:42 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I'd allow it, whether it was RAW or not. Squirrels breathing fire? Hell yes.


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