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Wrong. A Fighter draws his power from Martial power source, a Bard draws power from the Arcane power source. "A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass feat counts as a member of that class" is not the same as counting as that class' power source. I don't think there was ever any clarification on whether or not you pick up access to the new power source when you multiclass. It was only in Martial Power and the DDI articles that they actually started doing things by power source, so it's still kind of a new thing.
Is there anything in the PHB about picking up the power source when you multiclass? Or is there anything that CS has said on the subject?
I completely agree with half of this. You do not gain a power source, at the moment, when taking a multiclass feat. There are certainly things that require a power source to qualify. I do not agree that the Weapon Training feats are among them. The word class is used not Power Source. When I'm home and can email CS I'll do so, unless someone has done so already.
__________________ "It appears my hypocrisy knows no bounds" Doc Holliday as portrayed by Val Kilmer in Tombstone
I completely agree with half of this. You do not gain a power source, at the moment, when taking a multiclass feat. There are certainly things that require a power source to qualify. I do not agree that the Weapon Training feats are among them. The word class is used not Power Source. When I'm home and can email CS I'll do so, unless someone has done so already.
I'm not necessarily saying that they won't, just that we need clarification to say that they do. Please post whatever response you get from CS, as it would help to illuminate this issue.
Wrong. A Fighter draws his power from Martial power source, a Bard draws power from the Arcane power source. "A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass feat counts as a member of that class" is not the same as counting as that class' power source. I don't think there was ever any clarification on whether or not you pick up access to the new power source when you multiclass. It was only in Martial Power and the DDI articles that they actually started doing things by power source, so it's still kind of a new thing.
Is there anything in the PHB about picking up the power source when you multiclass? Or is there anything that CS has said on the subject?
Repeating the requirement for clarification:
"...any martial class"
Think about it. "any martial class" is less restrictive than listing, for example, "fighter or rogue." Further, since when you multiclass into fighter you are a fighter as far as feat selection is concerened, so therefore you [b][i]are[/b[]/i] a martial class and qualify for the feat.
"...any martial class" is simply an easy way to say, well, any martial class - not necessarily a character with unrestricted access to the martial power for any reason.
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Yes, there can be more than one right answer to a rules question! It can be an exercise in futility to attempt to apply a great deal of precision to an imprecise set of rules.
Last edited by Artoomis; 20th February 2009 at 09:21 PM..
Whip Training’s requirements are as follows; Prerequisites: Dex 13, any martial class
Page 208 of the 4e PHB says “A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for taking other feats and qualifying for paragon paths.”
Fighter is a Martial class, and as such the Bard multiclassing into fighter should qualify for Whip Training.
Agreed. Yep - it really is this easy.
__________________ Forward! We've got them right where they want us!
Yes, there can be more than one right answer to a rules question! It can be an exercise in futility to attempt to apply a great deal of precision to an imprecise set of rules.
This falls into the same design space problem that they have with "attack". Does attack mean each time you roll a d20 or a use of a single power such as Twin Strike? The preceeding is not meant to be answered as that has been discussed to death here in other threads and I don't want to turn this thread into a debate about that. I simply use it as an example of how WoTC has consistantly used the same words to have different meanings in different contexts and how that multi-use takes a simple phrase and makes it complicated by blurring the definition.
I don't like the use of "any martial class" when Martial is a power source. It blurs the definition of both martial AND class. There is NO martial class per se, there are only classes with the martial power source. If they had said "any class with the martial power source" then I would not even blink and agree with you. The other possible intent was "anyone with the Martial power source". If this is what was intended then getting a Multiclass feat won't get you this power/feat/whatever.
At this point I view this as a wait and see via CS responses or even errata.
I got this reply to your specific question:
Yes, you would be able to select those feats where "any martial class" is required. I will pass this along to the Character Builder team.
And so we have closure - I hope. Thanks Nimrand for your persistency.
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Yes, there can be more than one right answer to a rules question! It can be an exercise in futility to attempt to apply a great deal of precision to an imprecise set of rules.
I'm of the opinion that you can have both a weapon mastery path and be multiclassed in another class. Multiclassing in a martial class does qualify you for weapon mastery paths.
What makes these feats multiclass feats is that they use the same power exchanges as multiclass feats do, not that they make up their own separate mini-class.
My take is that you can only exchange one each of daily attack, encounter attack, and Utility power. Thus, if you have both a multiclass and a weapon mastery path, you can exchange one of each for either a multiclass power or a weapon mastery power, but you cannot do both.
This is not what the rues say (they are mum on the subject), but it is how I would play it. I also play the bard this way - I don't want my bards to give up ALL their bard powers.
__________________ Carl Cramér
Member of the Netbook of Feats review board.
Anyone cane take the feat to use the weapon. But only the Martial characters can receive the intensive training to use the weapon and its special attacks and effects etc. Thats how we look at it
__________________ "Ná Eru veria le, ná elenath dín síla erin rád o chuil lín."
I'm of the opinion that you can have both a weapon mastery path and be multiclassed in another class. ...My take is that you can only exchange one each of daily attack, encounter attack, and Utility power. Thus, if you have both a multiclass and a weapon mastery path, you can exchange one of each for either a multiclass power or a weapon mastery power, but you cannot do both.
This is not what the rues say...
You are quite right, that's not what the rules say. But... I think this discussion is about understanding what the rules actually say, as interpreted by WotC.
The answer seems clear.
1. The weapon mastery paths start with a multiclass feat, thus only martial classes or a Bard who multiclasses into a martial class may take the entry feat that start the feat chain.
2. If you are both multclassed and have weapon mastery (and only a bard can do this by the rules as they exist today - well, once PHBII comes out that is ), you can take as many of the power-swapping feats (up to six, total) as you want . Indeed, you coudl do this if you multiclass into more than one class. This is what bards are able to do. It's their schtick.
If you want to discuss how you will run this using your own rules, may I humbly suggest you take that discussion to "4e Fan Creations and House Rules."
__________________ Forward! We've got them right where they want us!
Yes, there can be more than one right answer to a rules question! It can be an exercise in futility to attempt to apply a great deal of precision to an imprecise set of rules.
Last edited by Artoomis; 25th February 2009 at 04:35 PM..
You are quite right, that's not what the rules say. But... I think this discussion is about understanding what the rules actually say, as interpreted by WotC.
The answer seems clear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artoomis
If you want to discuss how you will run this using your own rules, may I humbly suggest you take that discussion to "4e Fan Creations and House Rules."
Only my last paragraph was about my rule interpretation; the rest was about how to read the rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artoomis
1. The weapon mastery paths start with a multiclass feat, thus only martial classes or a Bard who multiclasses into a martial class may take the entry feat that start the feat chain.
2. If you are both multclassed and have weapon mastery (and only a bard can do this by the rules as they exist today - well, once PHBII comes out that is ), you can take as many of the power-swapping feats (up to six, total) as you want . Indeed, you could do this if you multiclass into more than one class. This is what bards are able to do. It's their schtick.
Here you are as deep in house-rule land as I am. What the rules say is that weapon mastery feats are not class-specific, and thus do not count as your one allowed class-specific multiclass feat. This leaves some issues open. You think one answer is obvious, I think another reading is more clear and close to the "spirit of the rules".
__________________ Carl Cramér
Member of the Netbook of Feats review board.
...Here you are as deep in house-rule land as I am. What the rules say is that weapon mastery feats are not class-specific, and thus do not count as your one allowed class-specific multiclass feat.
Really? I do not think so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon 368
Since the weapon mastery training feats require a great deal of focused training, each one is a multiclass feat. Normal rules for selecting multiclass feats apply.
Perhaps you can help me understand what I have overlooked or misunderstood or what question is left unanswered?
It seems to me that this is really simple:
You may take one of the weapon mastery feats as a multiclass feat (normal rules for selecting multiclass feats apply) providing you meet the prerequisites which are stated with each feat.
For Bola or Whip: Prerequisites: Dex 13, any martial class
So, if you have a Dex 13 and are any of the martial classes, you qualify. End of story.
The only complication comes from the Bard who can multiclass into a martial class and then is allowed to muticlass again and so can pick one or more weapon mastery feat(s) even though his starting class was not one of the martial classes.
For any other classes, either you are a martial class with a Dex of 13 and qualify or, well..., you can't take the feat. If a wizard, for example, were to mutliclass into fighter and have a Dex of 13, she still could not take either the Bola or Whip mastery feats because she would have already taken a multicalss feat and cannot take another - the "normal rules for selecting multiclass feats apply" and prevent that from happening.
That's the way the rules are written, so that is the starting point for anyone to decide how to run it in his/her own game.
__________________ Forward! We've got them right where they want us!
Yes, there can be more than one right answer to a rules question! It can be an exercise in futility to attempt to apply a great deal of precision to an imprecise set of rules.
The restrictions on the ammount and type of Class-specific Multiclass feats you can have are stated in the description of Class-Specific Multiclass feats on page 208 of the PHB. It says, "There are two restrictions on your choice of a class-specific multiclass feat. [...] Second, once you take a multiclass feat, you can’t take a class-specific feat for a different class."
The Weapon Training feats are listed as Weapon Training Feats in their article, not as Class-Specific Multiclass feats. This means that there aren't restrictions on the ammount of Weapon Training that you can receive.
While you can say that your view isn't a house rule, by RAW it is. It may not be RAI and it may not be how you want to read it, but it's there. There is no text anywhere saying that the Weapon Training Feats are Class-Specific feats. Yes, there is text saying to treat them as you would other Multiclass feats, but there are no rules dictating how many multiclass feats you may take. There are rules dictating how many of a specific sub-category of multiclass feats you may take.
__________________ "It appears my hypocrisy knows no bounds" Doc Holliday as portrayed by Val Kilmer in Tombstone
It appears that you can freely take a weapon-multiclass feat after taking a class-specific multiclass feat, but not the other way round (only you take a multiclass feat of any kind, you can no longer take class-specific multiclass feats for another class, and while weapon-multiclass aren't class specific, they are certainly not the same class as any other class-specific feat).
Scenario 1: Take weapon-multiclass feat first, you can no longer take class specific multiclass feats for any other class, and any class-specific multiclass is by default not the same class.
Scenario 2: Take class-specific feat first, you can still take a weapon multiclass, because it's not class-specific to a different class.
However, that's the literal and close reading. You could argue that you can indeed take the feats either way round, and it's certainly by the wording fine to take multiple weapon-multiclass feats.
Essentially, by a literal reading, the multiclass-designation does very little. This is silly, and plainly not the intent. It's pretty obvious to me that the intent is that weapon-multiclass feats are a pseudo-class, one for each weapon, and as such you are restricted from taking more than one different weapon multiclass, or a weapon and an actual class multiclass. That's the only way it makes any sense.
It's also what I'm going with at my tables. Unlike 3.5e, 4e shouldn't be hung up on the details of wording if it plainly contradicts the intent. Until it's clarified one way or the other, my Rogue who is taking Spiked Chain multiclass won't be looking at any other type of multiclass feat. Pity, spellscarring looked cool.
Edit: Nowhere does it say that a Bard multiclassing to, say, Fighter, becomes a Martial character. It's a reasonable assumption, but not spelled out anywhere I can find.
--Penn
__________________ "I'll remember it my way, and you all remember it the right way."
Last edited by Seule; 6th March 2009 at 03:47 PM..
Agreed. I don't think the intent was for you to be able to take Weapon MC feats and Class MC feats. I hadn't noticed the wording when rolling up my Warden and played for a few weeks as a Warden/Fighter with a whip. After reading the other thread I spoke to my DM and suggested that we house rule Weapon MC = Class MC. I've since changed my play style quite a bit.
In the game I run I've implemented the same house rule.
I was just pointing out where the view could come from that you can MC fighter/rogue/ranger/warlord then take whip/net/chain.
__________________ "It appears my hypocrisy knows no bounds" Doc Holliday as portrayed by Val Kilmer in Tombstone
The problem, if there really is one, is strictly one of attempting to go by very, very hype-strict rules reading and ignoring the obvious intent completely.
"Class specific" multiclass feats mean those feats that start the chain for multi-class feats - in other words, you multiclass to fighter (that's the "class-specific" multiclass feat) and then you can take the "Power Swap" multiclass feats.
The "weapon mastery" multiclass feats follow the "normal rules for selecting multiclass feats."
Unfortunately (and for the obvious reason that these feat chains work differently from class-specific multicass feat chains), they did not use the same terminology of "Class Specific" feat but, nonetheless, the rule is pretty clearly you may take one multiclass feat and then the power swap feats. Any other ruling would invalidate the ""normal rules for selecting multiclass feats" rule and render that phrase meaningless and you end up with a paradox where a hyper-strict rules reading ends up with one rule invalidating another.
Note that the intent from WotC is extremely clear both from the CustServ response I posted earlier and from the latest update for the Character Builder fixed this so that a Bard (who can multi-class more than once) can multi-class to fighter (or any martial class) and then take one of the Weapon Mastery feats that require one to be one of the martial classes. No other class can do this - any other class can muticlass once, and only once.
I can understand the confusion from the term "character-specific multiclass feat," but that's simply because the attempt was made to be very specific in the PHB but then they cleverly found another use for the multiclass mechanism that is not taking another class but focusing on a weapon instead of taking another class.
Thus, the rule is very clear, even if the terminology clouds that clearness a tad. A class (other than the Bard) may take one, and only one, multiclass feat and then may take the appropriate power-swapping multiclass feats that go with the original multiclass feat.
__________________ Forward! We've got them right where they want us!
Yes, there can be more than one right answer to a rules question! It can be an exercise in futility to attempt to apply a great deal of precision to an imprecise set of rules.
...Edit: Nowhere does it say that a Bard multiclassing to, say, Fighter, becomes a Martial character. It's a reasonable assumption, but not spelled out anywhere I can find.
--Penn
A Bard might not be a martial character after mutliclassing to fighter, but, for the purposes of feat prerequisites, et. al., they count as a member of the fighter class, and a fighter is a martial class. Thus they are "a member of a martial class" for the purposes of feat prerequisites, et. al.
It's obvious WotC agrees with this viewpoint as they changed the Character Builder to work this way.
__________________ Forward! We've got them right where they want us!
Yes, there can be more than one right answer to a rules question! It can be an exercise in futility to attempt to apply a great deal of precision to an imprecise set of rules.
A Bard might not be a martial character after mutliclassing to fighter, but, for the purposes of feat prerequisites, et. al., they count as a member of the fighter class, and a fighter is a martial class. Thus they are "a member of a martial class" for the purposes of feat prerequisites, et. al.
It's obvious WotC agrees with this viewpoint as they changed the Character Builder to work this way.
Also, someone asked CS about it and they said that, yes, when you multiclass into a Fighter you qualify for anything that says "Any Martial Class". I would assume of course, that this applies to all multiclass combinations. Whether this is the same as having access to the Martial power source or not isn't totally clear, but currently there's nothing that requires access to a power source so we can basically just assume that they're synonomous for now.
To answer the OP's question, as of this morning - Yes. See the article "the Art of the Kill" here (you must be a subscriber): Dragon 373: Art of the Kill
The relevant text: "Weapon Mastery feats have appeared before in “We
Who Are About to Die . . .” (Dragon 368, page 56) and “Playing Shadar-Kai” (Dragon 372, page 5). Those articles rightly described the initial training feats for weapon mastery as multiclass feats. They failed to make clear that those multiclass feats—Bola Training, Net Training, Spiked Chain Training, and Whip Training—are class-specific multiclass feats."
__________________ "I am the soul of honor, kindness, mercy, and goodness. Trust me in all things." Corwin to Dara, The Guns of Avalon by Roger Zelazny
The relevant text: "Weapon Mastery feats have appeared before in “We
Who Are About to Die . . .” (Dragon 368, page 56) and “Playing Shadar-Kai” (Dragon 372, page 5). Those articles rightly described the initial training feats for weapon mastery as multiclass feats. They failed to make clear that those multiclass feats—Bola Training, Net Training, Spiked Chain Training, and Whip Training—are class-specific multiclass feats."
This does indeed bring an official resolution.
__________________ Carl Cramér
Member of the Netbook of Feats review board.
), you can take as many of the power-swapping feats (up to six, total) as you want . Indeed, you coudl do this if you multiclass into more than one class. This is what bards are able to do. It's their schtick.
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