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Since the weapon mastery training feats require a great deal of focused training, each one is a multiclass
feat. Normal rules for selecting multiclass feats apply.
So, it seems that the intention here is that you can choose a single weapon-mastery feat in lieu of multiclassing. But that isn't what's written — the PH just says 1) you can't take a multiclass feat for your own class and 2) once you've taken a multiclass feat, you can't take a class-specific feat for a different class. (And then it's explained: you can dabble in a second class but not a third.)
Class-specific multiclass feats appear to be defined at the top of page
208 — namely, each class has one. Since weapon mastery isn't a class, clearly there isn't a class-specific feat for it, and therefore clearly by the RAW you can multiclass into fighter and then take a weapon mastery feat
On the other hand, it seems like there's no reason at all to make the weapon mastery feats be multiclass feats other than the intention of restricting them in this way — so it seems that must be the intention.
I'd ask Wizards, but their help form repeatedly tells me that an error has occurred and I should restart my browser.
If you ask me, the entire concept of multiclassing into something that isn't actually a class seems incredibly silly in the first place. Ignoring that entire rule doesn't seem like a bad idea.
If you ask me, the entire concept of multiclassing into something that isn't actually a class seems incredibly silly in the first place.
It's bringing back prestige classes, basically. (Very small ones.)
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Ignoring that entire rule doesn't seem like a bad idea.
Presumably the idea is to a) make it cost a significant resource and b) put it into a "safer" design space where there's less chance of accidental super-power-combos.
Any decent DM can deal with "b" in house rules; "a" is a bit harder to judge (but also more arbitrary in the first place).
I'd say the key issue is the power swapping. I get the impression that one of the unstated design principles of 4e is that most of a character's encounter, utility and daily powers will come from his class. Even with paragon multiclassing, the powers from the other class only replace powers that the character would have obtained from a paragon path. Allowing the weapon mastery feats to swap powers on top of the regular multiclass power swap feats could leave a character with only one encounter and one daily power from his original class. It wouldn't necessarily be unbalanced mechanically, but the character's class identity would be diluted.
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Last edited by FireLance; 17th February 2009 at 02:00 AM..
Well I have one solution for you: play a bard. With their ability to take as many multiclass feats as you like, my playing around with the character builder suggests you can take as many of these feats as you like. I'm not sure that's an intended feature of the class, mind you, but it is interesting.
--Steve
__________________ Be a rebel...order your coffee in one of these three radical sizes: small, medium or large.
"Sure as I know anything, I know this. I aim to misbehave."
--Capt. Malcolm Reynolds, Serenity
I play 4E, and it's every bit as much Dungeons and Dragons as any other edition, including the one(s) you play. No more, and no less.
I'm pretty sure that the intent is that it takes up the same design space as multiclassing (and as spellscars). That's how I've been playing it, anyway.
--Penn
__________________ "I'll remember it my way, and you all remember it the right way."
How does the character builder handle it? (I'll check when I get home)
I checked the character builder, and the feats are listed in the Multiclass section, so you are only able to take one of them by that measure.
I am sad to say that my bard, even after taking the fighter multiclass, was unable to take any of them. Apparently the character builder does not treat being multiclassed as a fighter as being a martial class. So there goes making the ultimate weapon master as a bard. Maybe that's not such a bad thing, however, as it was a rather silly idea.
--Steve
__________________ Be a rebel...order your coffee in one of these three radical sizes: small, medium or large.
"Sure as I know anything, I know this. I aim to misbehave."
--Capt. Malcolm Reynolds, Serenity
I play 4E, and it's every bit as much Dungeons and Dragons as any other edition, including the one(s) you play. No more, and no less.
I checked the character builder, and the feats are listed in the Multiclass section, so you are only able to take one of them by that measure.
That makes sense. It seems them that weapon mastery (and presumably implement mastery) are meant as rewards for specialization. Rather than picking up something like a Ranger multi-class feat for your Fighter to get a skill and Hunter's Quarry once per encounter, you could instead take a weapon mastery feat in your chosen weapon to become more... "Fighter-y" I guess.
That makes sense. It seems them that weapon mastery (and presumably implement mastery) are meant as rewards for specialization. Rather than picking up something like a Ranger multi-class feat for your Fighter to get a skill and Hunter's Quarry once per encounter, you could instead take a weapon mastery feat in your chosen weapon to become more... "Fighter-y" I guess.
Yep. I expect we will see more of these for other classes. As it is, the multiclass feats are a sort of "slam dunk" to take...if not taking one meant you could be better with a specific aspect of your character, that would not be the same thing. It would be a way, for instance, to create a specialist wizard or domains for a priest. Interesting.
--Steve
__________________ Be a rebel...order your coffee in one of these three radical sizes: small, medium or large.
"Sure as I know anything, I know this. I aim to misbehave."
--Capt. Malcolm Reynolds, Serenity
I play 4E, and it's every bit as much Dungeons and Dragons as any other edition, including the one(s) you play. No more, and no less.
Yep. I expect we will see more of these for other classes. As it is, the multiclass feats are a sort of "slam dunk" to take...if not taking one meant you could be better with a specific aspect of your character, that would not be the same thing. It would be a way, for instance, to create a specialist wizard or domains for a priest. Interesting.
--Steve
Yeah, I imagine that we'll probably see some errata clearing up that whole "Class specific" thing in the PHB. Or if not there, then at least something more clear in the PHB 2, since it seems to be including both Weapon AND Implement Expertise feats of some sort.
So, I was able to pose the question to customer service and got a helpful reply:
They're very clear and sure that the intention is, as we pretty much all assume, for the weapon mastery feats and similar to fill the same space as a class-specific multiclass feat.
They also agree that the rules as they're currently written don't say that — but again say that they are meant to.
I am sad to say that my bard, even after taking the fighter multiclass, was unable to take any of them. Apparently the character builder does not treat being multiclassed as a fighter as being a martial class.
--Steve
My warforged barbarian was unable to multiclass fighter and then take the Warforged Juggernaut paragon path, which requires defender role. Apparently, multiclassing fighter lets you qualify for things that require the word fighter, not the word martial or defender.
__________________ I will build a throne with the skulls of my foemen.
I checked the character builder, and the feats are listed in the Multiclass section, so you are only able to take one of them by that measure.
I suspect this is as intended.
Quote:
I am sad to say that my bard, even after taking the fighter multiclass, was unable to take any of them. Apparently the character builder does not treat being multiclassed as a fighter as being a martial class.
I'm sure it does, but once you've taken the mutliclass fighter feat you can't take another multiclass feat like the whip training. Hence to get any of those feats you need to start in a martial class. Again as intended.
My warforged barbarian was unable to multiclass fighter and then take the Warforged Juggernaut paragon path, which requires defender role. Apparently, multiclassing fighter lets you qualify for things that require the word fighter, not the word martial or defender.
Sounds like a programme glitch. You should submit it and see what they say.
I'm sure it does, but once you've taken the mutliclass fighter feat you can't take another multiclass feat like the whip training. Hence to get any of those feats you need to start in a martial class. Again as intended.
The thing is, with the Bard you get an ability called "multiclass versatility" which lets you take any number of multiclass feats. It was my evil plan to acquire all of these feats and see what I ended up with. Probably for the best, as a whip/net wielder would likely not have been too useful.
The bard is a weird corner case, I'll admit. By the definitions, I believe I actually should be able to take the weapon mastery feats, since multiclassing as class X makes you count as class X. It's likely a case of the character builder not being the best place to look for rules clarifications. Still, it's a weird example, so I should probably include a with this...
--Steve
__________________ Be a rebel...order your coffee in one of these three radical sizes: small, medium or large.
"Sure as I know anything, I know this. I aim to misbehave."
--Capt. Malcolm Reynolds, Serenity
I play 4E, and it's every bit as much Dungeons and Dragons as any other edition, including the one(s) you play. No more, and no less.
I think you're missing the possibility that while a Bard can take the Fighter multiclass feat and get abilities tied to the "Fighter" class it doesn't say ANYTHING about being able to pick up the "Martial" keyword by multiclassing. I view this to be as intended.
Whip Training’s requirements are as follows; Prerequisites: Dex 13, any martial class
Page 208 of the 4e PHB says “A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for taking other feats and qualifying for paragon paths.”
Fighter is a Martial class, and as such the Bard multiclassing into fighter should qualify for Whip Training.
__________________ "It appears my hypocrisy knows no bounds" Doc Holliday as portrayed by Val Kilmer in Tombstone
Whip Training’s requirements are as follows; Prerequisites: Dex 13, any martial class
Page 208 of the 4e PHB says “A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for taking other feats and qualifying for paragon paths.”
Fighter is a Martial class, and as such the Bard multiclassing into fighter should qualify for Whip Training.
Wrong. A Fighter draws his power from Martial power source, a Bard draws power from the Arcane power source. "A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass feat counts as a member of that class" is not the same as counting as that class' power source. I don't think there was ever any clarification on whether or not you pick up access to the new power source when you multiclass. It was only in Martial Power and the DDI articles that they actually started doing things by power source, so it's still kind of a new thing.
Is there anything in the PHB about picking up the power source when you multiclass? Or is there anything that CS has said on the subject?
Last edited by Doctor Proctor; 20th February 2009 at 05:11 PM..
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