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Fleeting Ghost lets you become hidden in cover or concealment?
Quote:
Originally Posted by "PHB119, Rogue Utility 2, Fleeting Ghost
At-Will, Martial
...
Effect: You can move your speed and make a Stealth check. You do not take the normal penalty from movement on this check.
Does this say what I think it says? There is no errata I know of on this power, but based on the errata of Stealth, this is how I currently interpret this.
Normally, by the errata, making a Stealth check requires Superior Cover or Total Concealment, while remaining hidden requires only Cover or Concealment. With Fleeting Ghost, you can become hidden simply by making an At-Will Move Action. If you moved to cover or concealment, you remain hidden, if you did not end your move with at least cover or concealment, you do not remain hidden.
So it lets you duck back into the smoke, or just around the corner, and become hidden.
It does NOT let you move your speed and remain hidden without penalty, unless you rolled a new Stealth check, which could be risky.
I think this may be way overpowered if this is the correct interpretation. Ordinary cover and concealment are fairly common, and this would often allow a 2nd level rogue to dart in and out of hiding almost trivially.
When I read it the first time, I interpreted it as allowing a rogue to move his speed while hidden without a penalty to his Stealth check, which seemed fine by me. Somewhat useful in combat, but mostly it speeds up exploration. But if so, it would have been written exactly like the feat Secret Stride, PHB205. The fact a separate feat exists suggests that the power is different from the feat.
I am not sure how to avoid this interpretation. Specific trumps general, so a power that allows you to "move and make a Stealth check" does just that.
Wow.
It may be intended to make rogues the super-stealthers. Some low level monsters get Sniper, which is very powerful, so maybe it's not absurd. But I checked the Errata, and this is how I read it.
It allows you to make a stealth check if there is a reason you could make one. Just as Quick Fingers (rogue utility 2) would allow you to make a thievery check if there is a reason you could make one. Just as quick fingers doesn't let you pickpocket from across the room, or disarm a trap without knowing where it is, Fleeting Ghost doesn't let you hide without total concealment or superior cover. Fleeting Ghost's intent is to ignore the usual penalty from movement.
People will argue with me on this, but their arguments will be weak.
edit:
Quote:
The fact a separate feat exists suggests that the power is different from the feat.
The feat is paragon, the power is level 2. The feat is open to rangers and such. The power is, for all intents and purposes, a utility power version of the feat, gained 9 levels sooner, for rogues only.
__________________ I will build a throne with the skulls of my foemen.
Last edited by Eldorian; 17th February 2009 at 10:14 PM..
It allows you to make a stealth check if there is a reason you could make one.
The effect says that you can make a Stealth check. I see no basis at all to add in your extra clause, especially since the designers have done extensive work on both Stealth and rogues and have not chosen to update Fleeting Ghost.
The effect says that you can make a Stealth check. I see no basis at all to add in your extra clause, especially since the designers have done extensive work on both Stealth and rogues and have not chosen to update Fleeting Ghost.
Sure, make as many stealth checks as you want.. They can't do anything, just as Nimble Fingers can't do anything unless there is something to do. Stealth cannot make you hidden unless you have total concealment or superior cover.
__________________ I will build a throne with the skulls of my foemen.
It allows you to make a stealth check if there is a reason you could make one. Just as Quick Fingers (rogue utility 2) would allow you to make a thievery check if there is a reason you could make one. Just as quick fingers doesn't let you pickpocket from across the room, or disarm a trap without knowing where it is, Fleeting Ghost doesn't let you hide without total concealment or superior cover. Fleeting Ghost's intent is to ignore the usual penalty from movement.
On what basis do you conclude this? What rules do you reference? Explicitly, what is your logic?
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Originally Posted by Eldorian
People will argue with me on this, but their arguments will be weak.
Actually, your argument is weak. You simply state your conclusion as fact, which is as weak as an argument can get.
In contrast, I use quote specific rules from the PHB and its errata.
Where is the principle given that you are generalizing from?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldorian
The power is, for all intents and purposes, a utility power version of the feat, gained 9 levels sooner, for rogues only.
Actually they're not identical. The feat removes a penalty to a skill check, while the power grants a new At-Will Power that takes a Move Action.
They behave differently in practice. For example, suppose a rogue is currently hidden, sneaking into a fortress perhaps, and wishes to quickly sneak down a dimly lit hall moving his full speed.
With Secret Stride, the rogue retains his original Stealth check, since he remains hidden, but ignores the penalty for movement. With Fleeting Ghost, he still remains hidden, but makes a new Stealth check at the end of his move. This might be worse than his original check, so it is risky if there are potential observers.
The feat and the power behave differently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Knight Irios
I like to point you to this thread. Read it and think about it.
Where is the SEARCH function in this forum? I have not found it.
EDIT:
I am not convinced the Customer Service Representitive is correct. If the intent of Fleeting Ghost were simply to write a utility version of Secret Stride, it would have been written more like:
Fleeting Ghost: Rogue Utility 2 At-Will: Martial Free Action, Personal Prerequisite: You must be trained in Stealth. Effect: Until the end of your turn, you do not incur penalties to your Stealth check if you move at full speed while hiding or sneaking.
In other words, the power would modify your Stealth checks.
But that's not what Fleeting Ghost reads. It gives the rogue a new move action whose effect grants you a Stealth check without penalty for moving your full speed. The effect of a successful Stealth check is that you become hidden.
So far as I can tell, you can argue about intent, but I find nothing written that contradicts my conclusion.
Smeelbo
Last edited by Smeelbo; 18th February 2009 at 12:51 AM..
Reason: Responding to referenced thread
I had to actually WORK to figure out exactly what people were reading into that power that wasn't there.
It seems pretty simple that when you eliminate all the "It depends on the definition of IS" rigmarole that the power is meant to simply let you ignore penalties you would normally have for moving.
On what basis do you conclude this? What rules do you reference? Explicitly, what is your logic?
Actually, your argument is weak. You simply state your conclusion as fact, which is as weak as an argument can get.
My argument is obvious. Powers that let you make a skill check don't allow you to use the skill in some way that contradicts the normal usage of the skill unless they explicitly state otherwise. The rules for how to use skills are laid out on page 180 under "skill descriptions" and the errata stealth entry.
Becoming Hidden: You can make a Stealth check against an enemy only if you have superior cover or total concealment against the enemy or if you’re outside the enemy’s line of sight. Outside combat, the DM can allow you to make a Stealth check against a distracted enemy, even if you don’t have superior cover or total concealment and aren’t outside the enemy’s line of sight. The distracted enemy might be focused on something in a different direction, allowing you to sneak up.
Nimble Fingers doesn't work unless there is something to use thievery on. Fleeting Ghost doesn't allow you to do anything but move unless there is something for a stealth check to do after the move.
Here, let me give an example with a different power to let you see what's going on. My favorite power to bring up in these discussions, Nimble Fingers. Say my rogue walks up to a naked minotaur armed with a spear. He uses Nimble Fingers. What can he do with the nimble fingers? Whatever a thievery check allows him to do. If there is no trap, he can't disable it. If there is no lock, he cannot pick it. The minotaur is naked, so he cannot pick pocket it, because pick pocket explicitly states that you cannot pickpocket held objects. He could palm an object if he had one (lets assume he doesn't), or he could perform an act of legerdemain. Your logic would allow the rogue to take the minotaur's spear, by allowing the power to use a skill in a way that contradicts the usage of the skill.
Quote:
Actually they're not identical. The feat removes a penalty to a skill check, while the power grants a new At-Will Power that takes a Move Action.
They behave differently in practice. For example, suppose a rogue is currently hidden, sneaking into a fortress perhaps, and wishes to quickly sneak down a dimly lit hall moving his full speed.
With Secret Stride, the rogue retains his original Stealth check, since he remains hidden, but ignores the penalty for movement. With Fleeting Ghost, he still remains hidden, but makes a new Stealth check at the end of his move. This might be worse than his original check, so it is risky if there are potential observers.
Again you are wrong. Stealth entry states that if you move more than 2 squares you make a new check. A hidden rogue wants to move more than 2 squares. If he has fleeting ghost, he uses it, takes no penalty for the move, and rechecks his stealth. If he has secret stride, he makes a normal move action, takes no penalty for the move, and rechecks his stealth. In both cases, the rogue must have had concealment or cover during the entire move.
Remaining Hidden: You remain hidden as long as you meet these requirements.
Keep Out of Sight: If you no longer have any cover or concealment against an enemy, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy. You don’t need superior cover, total concealment, or to stay outside line of sight, but you do need some degree of cover or concealment to remain hidden. You can’t use another creature as cover to remain hidden.
Keep Quiet: If you speak louder than a whisper or otherwise draw attention to yourself, you don’t remain hidden from any enemy that can hear you.
Keep Still: If you move more than 2 squares during an action, you must make a new Stealth check with a –5 penalty. If you run, the penalty is –10. If any enemy’s passive Perception check beats your check result, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy.
Don’t Attack: If you attack, you don’t remain hidden.
__________________ I will build a throne with the skulls of my foemen.
I had to actually WORK to figure out exactly what people were reading into that power that wasn't there.
It seems pretty simple that when you eliminate all the "It depends on the definition of IS" rigmarole that the power is meant to simply let you ignore penalties you would normally have for moving.
DS
This.
Fleeting Ghost removes the penalty to Stealth checks for moving more than 2 squares. It does NOT remove the penalty from Running, though, as you can only move up to your speed.
I had to actually WORK to figure out exactly what people were reading into that power that wasn't there.
It seems pretty simple that when you eliminate all the "It depends on the definition of IS" rigmarole that the power is meant to simply let you ignore penalties you would normally have for moving.
DS
Yeah, first time I came across someone arguing the opposite I was sorta confused too.
__________________ I will build a throne with the skulls of my foemen.
A sure sign of a weak argument. If it is "obvious," then it needn't be made explicitly, and by implication, anyone who disagrees must be stupid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldorin
Powers that let you make a skill check don't allow you to use the skill in some way that contradicts the normal usage of the skill unless they explicitly state otherwise.
Other than declaring this to be the case, do you have any text, in either the PHB, DMG, or Errata, to support this assertion? Reading, I don't find any.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldorin
The rules for how to use skills are laid out on page 180 under "skill descriptions"...
Nothing on PHB 178-180 supports your argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldorin
...and the errata stealth entry.
Again, nothing to support the principle you are arguing.
On the other hand:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Core Mechanic, Player's Handbook, page 11
SPECIFIC BEATS GENERAL:
If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins.
In this case, the specific text of Fleeting Ghost overrides the general case of the errata for Stealth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldorin
Here, let me give an example with a different power to let you see what's going on. My favorite power to bring up in these discussions, Nimble Fingers.
Argument by analogy is a classic logical fallacy. To say Nimble Fingers is "like" Fleeting Ghost, and therefore arguments made about Nimble Fingers apply to Fleeting Ghost is nothing more than flummery. The analogy is weak in any case. A Stealth check only ever accomplishes one thing, becoming or staying hidden, whereas Thievery checks may accomplish a variety of very distinct ends.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Errata
Keep Still: If you move more than 2 squares during an action, you must make a new Stealth check with a –5 penalty.
This is the correct argument to make, namely that the specifics of Fleeting Ghost override the general case of this clause, which upon reading, seems a very reasonable interpretation.
Fleeting Ghost and Secret Stride are not identical however. Fleeting Ghost creates a move action that is an exception to Keeping Still, whereas Secret Stride removes the movement penalty to all Stealth checks unless a Run action is taken. Secret Stride applies to other forms of movement except running, such as shifting, or moving as part of another action, like a charge, whereas Fleeting Ghost only applies when that power is used as a move action.
In any case, I do not find that Eldorin's main argument, that powers never let you accomplish something not specifically allowed, has not been shown to be supported by the rules. His implicit argument, that Fleeting Ghost overrides Keeping Still, and not Becoming Hidden is a much better argument, and I agree.
First off, an argument by analogy isn't a fallacy. Watch yourself, you're limiting your ability to learn. In my field, (mathematics) we often use such arguments, by showing two things are the same in the relevant sense, then proving something about one thing and implying it's true about the other. How the two things are alike is what's important. And in this case, both of them use the same language, and reference the use of a skill, which use the same general rules.
The text in the book that I rely on is the one you posted yourself.
SPECIFIC BEATS GENERAL:
If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins.
Fleeting Ghost's only contradiction of the specific rule is that you don't take the penalty for moving.
When the power says make a stealth check, it doesn't say you become hidden after using it. You have to reference what a stealth check can do. In stealth's case, it can do only one thing (in the player's handbook, outside of DM specified things such as skill challenges), and that is make you hidden. But it can do this only if you have total concealment or superior cover from some enemy.
Here is an example that ruins your line of thinking.
Say a rogue uses Fleeting Ghost and moves into a square which provides superior cover from foe 1, and concealment from foe 2. He moves, and makes a stealth check. He looks up stealth, and reads that he can only make it against a foe he has total concealment or superior cover from, so he can become hidden from foe 1, but not foe 2. The power didn't say he can make a stealth check against every foe, just that he could make one.
There. He got to make his stealth check to become hidden (your whole argument is that the power makes him make a stealth check, so he HAS to have the ability to become hidden because that's all stealth can do.)
However, if he only had cover from foe 1, he could have become hidden from both (he had to make a stealth check, and neither of his opponents were more deserving of getting hid from). That, my friend, is a reductio ad absurdum. If you like logic so much.
__________________ I will build a throne with the skulls of my foemen.
My current interpretation is now that Fleeting Ghost grants a move action that is an exception to Keeping Still from the Stealth errata. My mistake was seeing it as an exception to Becoming Hidden, from the same errata.
In this case, the specific text of Fleeting Ghost overrides the general case of the errata for Stealth.
But Fleeting Ghost doesn't specify that it overrides the normal Stealth rules. It is silent on the point. Therefore, the reasonable interpretation is that it doesn't alter the normal Stealth rules beyond what is explicitly stated...so you still need superior cover or total concealment to become hidden.
My current interpretation is now that Fleeting Ghost grants a move action that is an exception to Keeping Still from the Stealth errata. My mistake was seeing it as an exception to Becoming Hidden, from the same errata.
Smeelbo
Excuse me while I go buy lottery tickets.
__________________ I will build a throne with the skulls of my foemen.
But that's not what Fleeting Ghost reads. It gives the rogue a new move action whose effect grants you a Stealth check without penalty for moving your full speed. The effect of a successful Stealth check is that you become hidden.
The effect of a successful Stealth check is that you become hidden, if you have something to hide behind. Fleeting Ghost just says you can make a Stealth check, it doesn't say, "make a Stealth check and become hidden regardless of cover or concealment."
EDIT: I see this has already been resolved. Sorry!
Last edited by Spatula; 18th February 2009 at 06:07 AM..
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