Use a free action after a charge?

[Mahali]

Originally Posted by Tyken12

I'm wondering whether I can make the "free-action melee basic" before the charge completes with its own melee basic (as part of the movement of the charge I used Fey Step, so the minute I reach my enemy I use a free action to attack it before the charge's melee basic actually resolves?)? It's a very confusing situation, and probably one of the few instances where this is truely a vital question. I'd love to hear if anyone has an opinion or other advice!

Not in our game.

Free actions, in general, are not written so as to allow them in the middle of other actions. Some are specifically written to allow their use to modify actions/rolls before resolution.

Your action is "charge" and once you charge you can't take other actions (except by Action Point, which is specifically written to allow it).

[Mort_Q]

More Necromancy!

Originally Posted by Tyken12

I actually have a case in which this problem is vitally important.
I play a "Jumper" build. It is a build that utilizes the Fighter feat Fey Charge (when you charge you may replace squares in the charge with your Fey Step racial power. If the charge hits, Fey Step is not expended). So the base Class is Fighter, but I decided to multiclass into Swordmage. This lets me take the feat Eladrin Swordmage Advance (When you use Fey Step to teleport adjacent to an enemy, you can make a Melee Basic Attack against that enemy as a FREE action). Catch the delema here? So I charge, replacing the squares of movement with my Fey Step power, then I should be able to use a free action to make a melee basic. I'm wondering whether I can make the "free-action melee basic" before the charge completes with its own melee basic (as part of the movement of the charge I used Fey Step, so the minute I reach my enemy I use a free action to attack it before the charge's melee basic actually resolves?)? It's a very confusing situation, and probably one of the few instances where this is truely a vital question. I'd love to hear if anyone has an opinion or other advice!

One is a Charge that uses Fey Step, and one is Fey Step (with no +1). They're not the same thing. At least, that's how I'd solve the problem if I was your DM.

That said, how many times can you hit AC in row with a basic melee attack?

[Lucas Blackstone]

To be fair, taking free actions during a charge ( for instance using the flaming sword power ) is different then taking actions after a charge, which is what is actually forbidden.

Triggers seem to interrupt actions even though they aren't interrupts since they wouldn't work on your own turn ( Elven Accuracy is an example of such, it goes off in the midst of your own attack but isn't an interrupt because you can't perform immediate actions on your turn ). Since Swift Charge has a trigger involved it would suggest that it doesn't trigger AFTER the charge, but during the resolution.

There's plenty of room for guesswork and intpretation though.

[Vael]

Triggerable free actions I'd allow after a charge ... so the Barbarian's Swift Charge would be allowed, but our group hasn't allowed our Warforged Warden to use Nature's Wrath after a charge.

[TDarien]

I allow free actions after a charge, for the following reasons.

1. Using an action point is specifically allowed. Using an action point is itself a free action (pg. 286). This, in my opinion, sets a precedent.

2. Free actions are listed separately from the Standard, Move, and Minor actions (listed together as "Your Actions") in the "Actions on Your Turn" section (pg. 269) I believe the "No further actions" clause of charging refers only to the "Your actions" sub-heading.

3. It doesn't seem game-breaking in any way to allow them.

This is simply my interpretation of the intent of the rules. I see the merit in arguments disallowing free actions after a charge, I just don't feel it is the intent of the rule to disallow free actions.

[Mengu]

Depends on the trigger of the free action. Half-orc's can use Furious Assault on a hit as a free action. I see no reason to deny this with a charge attack.

However, if a druid with Quick Wild Shape charges, and then wishes to wild shape as a free action after the charge, I would say no. The free action does not trigger from the charge action, and the charge action ends the druid's turn, so no free action quick wild shape at the end of a charge.

Another example would be, if you have boots of eagerness, which once per encounter gives you an additional move action during your turn, you would not be able to use this power after a charge, because again your turn ends, before you are able to use the necessary free action.

So in general, I'd say any free action power that says "during your turn" is not usable after a charge. Any power that triggers on a charge, hit, miss, damaging an enemy, bloodying an enemy, reducing an enemy to 0 HP, etc. will work after a charge. It would be silly for a thaneborn barbarian to not be able to use Roar of Triumph after taking down an opponent with a charge.

[Ughman]

The most relevant rules case for this question (in my opinion) is wardens. Wardens can mark 'as a free action during their turn' (paraphrasing) so it's a big deal if it's a yes or no for them.

For one, I believe the answer is no for that one, but there are definitely certain powers that are probably a yes (such as, say, the luckblade daily free action to reroll an attack.)

Mostly, I think free actions are one of the least well explained rules sections of 4e. I don't think the devs have been totally consistent with dealing with them, so the reality is that's its just up to your DM.

This isn't as bad as some cases I've seen, where there have been powers that are immediate actions and seem to be designed to work on your turn. (Note: basic definitions of opportunity and immediate actions state that you can't do them on your turn.)

Meh. I say employ common sense.

[Flipguarder]

Originally Posted by Ughman

The most relevant rules case for this question (in my opinion) is wardens. Wardens can mark 'as a free action during their turn' (paraphrasing) so it's a big deal if it's a yes or no for them.

Honestly I think some people are just DM's who want to screw over their wardens

[Mengu]

Originally Posted by Flipguarder

Honestly I think some people are just DM's who want to screw over their wardens

Or maybe they just like to play by the rules. Our warden in 5 levels has charged maybe 3-4 times, and when he has done so, it's usually into the midst of several enemies so it hardly matters if he marked them or not, they attack him anyway.

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well, this topic came up quite a while back, and there have been extensive discussions on this topic over on gleemax. I think the most solid interpretation, which Mort_Q I think at least hinted at back at the start of this thread, is the "nested resolution" interpretation.

On PHB p269 is the "Making An Attack" box. It says "All attacks follow the same basic process:" and then lists 5 steps.

Step 5 is "Deal damage and apply other effects (page 276)."

Now, we know that many free actions have triggers. Some triggers are explicit, like the wizard utility level 2 spells Shield and Feather Fall. Other free actions have implicit triggers, like Elven Accuracy, but they logically still MUST be triggered (or else we must accept that free actions can always happen in the midst of any other action at any time whatsoever).

Thus the logical construction is that a free action which is triggered has to be resolved at that point in the attack resolution procedure on p269. This isn't exactly news to anyone, the game just plain won't work right unless this is true.

In the case of free actions which trigger on taking some other action, and not explicitly on a specific point in the resolution procedure, like the barbarian's Swift Charge, we thus have an explicitly or implicitly triggered action that needs to be resolved in order to complete the triggering action, that is the triggered actions are pretty obviously nested within the action that triggered them. If no other explicit point exists for this resolution, then step 5 "apply other effects" is the catch-all.

So, in the case of Swift Charge you would trigger it at the start of step 5 "Deal damage" and it would resolve at the end of step 5, "apply other effects", which is before the end of the charge action and thus the "no actions after a charge" rule has not yet come into effect.

Alternately you simply have to believe that free actions are all able to be taken at any point within any other action and effectively the entire debate is moot. Of course in that case you will find there are a whole bunch of other bizarre things that suddenly become allowed, like wardens can mark halfway through their move action, etc. I don't know of any of these side effects that are game breaking, but it seems like it could be a pretty significant rules point and personally I'm not eager to open that can of worms.

[Artoomis]

Originally Posted by Tyken12

...It is a build that utilizes the Fighter feat Fey Charge ... the feat Eladrin Swordmage Advance...

Analysis (with feats written out):

1. Fey Charge: When you charge, you can use your fey step racial power as a free action to replace up to 5 squares of your charge movement with teleportation. If the charge attack hits, you do not expend fey step.

2. Eladrin Swordmage Advance: When you use your fey step racial power to teleport to a square adjacent to an enemy, you can make a melee basic attack against that enemy as a free action.

Reading these two together, the question becomes:

When using Fey Charge are you using "your fey step racial power to teleport to a square adjacent to an enemy?" Since you "use your fey step racial power as a free action" during the charge then, in most cases, you could use Eladrin Swordmage Advance before the charge attack is resolved - in fact, if you use it, it must be used before the charge attack is resolved or it is too late to use it. The exception being, for course, if you use Fey Charge but do not end up actually "teleport(ing) to a square adjacent to an enemy," which might very well happen.

This means you might use you fey step racial power in a charge, be successful with two attacks, and no have expended your use of the fey step power.

That's a really nice synergy, though it did cost a minimum of three feats to set it up (the two feats mentioned here plus at least one multiclass feat).

[Flipguarder]

Originally Posted by Mengu

Or maybe they just like to play by the rules.

I think with the number of free actions from an item or feature that happen after a charge specifically gives at least room to debate that idea. Under the assumption that 'thems the rules" those items wouldn't work, because a charge ENDS your turn, they would need to be immediate reaction abilities.

[Mengu]

Originally Posted by Flipguarder

I think with the number of free actions from an item or feature that happen after a charge specifically gives at least room to debate that idea. Under the assumption that 'thems the rules" those items wouldn't work, because a charge ENDS your turn, they would need to be immediate reaction abilities.

Immediate reaction wouldn't work since you can't use immediate actions during your turn.

free action works based on the trigger, as I said earlier. If there is no trigger for the free action satisfied by any part of the resolution of the charge attack, and the action is worded such that you can only use it during your turn, then you can't use it after a charge. Warden's mark is one such action (as are the two other free actions I gave as examples earlier, Quick Wild Shape, and Boots of Eagerness).

[Flipguarder]

Originally Posted by Mengu

Immediate reaction wouldn't work since you can't use immediate actions during your turn.

free action works based on the trigger, as I said earlier.

This is the problem: free actions work on your turn, a charge ENDS your turn. It is the last thing that happens on a turn with a charge, unless you use an action point. Now if you have an item, power or feature that gives you a power that is a free action triggered on a charge, it cannot work unless you allow free actions on your turn, because otherwise you would be acting on a turn that is not yours, which would require an immediate or opportunity action. Because a charge ENDS your turn.

[AbdulAlhazred]

Originally Posted by Flipguarder

This is the problem: free actions work on your turn, a charge ENDS your turn. It is the last thing that happens on a turn with a charge, unless you use an action point. Now if you have an item, power or feature that gives you a power that is a free action triggered on a charge, it cannot work unless you allow free actions on your turn, because otherwise you would be acting on a turn that is not yours, which would require an immediate or opportunity action. Because a charge ENDS your turn.

There are two problems with this:

1) A charge doesn't end your turn. Granted, it forbids you to use additional actions afterwards, but your turn is not technically over.

2) You can still resolve the entire issue if you resolve triggered actions at step 5 of the triggering action (or in many cases they will resolve in earlier steps anyway). See my last post for the logic involved. This interpretation actually deals with (I believe) all the issues surrounding charging and free actions. It also does so without assuming that any old free action can be used in the middle of other actions.

[Flipguarder]

Originally Posted by AbdulAlhazred

There are two problems with this:

1) A charge doesn't end your turn. Granted, it forbids you to use additional actions afterwards, but your turn is not technically over.

So your turn isn't over, but you can't take actions. Is it just me or is that kind of like saying, "I'm not done with school, but I've gone to all my classes and don't have any other school activities left." It's essentially speechcraft.

Although I see your point about resolving the action, a triggered action is part of the next action imo. Otherwise any free-action ability triggered by an attack is part of that attack. So Your second charge from swift charge is still part of the first charge. So you get two charges in a row.

I'm not saying this is definite, just that things are not as clear as you make them out to be.

[Festivus]

Originally Posted by dammitbiscuit

It's a free action, which you're free to take on anyone's turn. If your DM is being a stickler and saying you can't take any more actions in your turn, simply resolve the effect while the next guy takes his turn.

But it could be important... particularly if you are talking about ongoing effects and the save that occurs at the end of your turn... that you take the free action before another person's turn and on your own turn. What if you had been given a +2 to attack on your turn... and you have a free action to attack with? You want to attack with that free action on your turn, not someone elses where you lose the +2. I am sure there are more examples... but as a DM, I usually rule that unless it explicitly says "after a charge" on the free action, it doesn't happen on your turn.

[Orcus Porkus]

Some of you guys don't read the rules, but make gigantic assumptions about them. I really don't understand your problem with free actions. The rule:

Free Action

Free actions take almost no time or effort. You can take as many free actions as you want during your or another combatant’s turn. The DM can restrict the number of free actions in a turn. Examples: speaking a few sentences, dropping a held item, letting go of a grabbed enemy.

Can it get any simpler than that? The only restriction is the DM. He can call it quits when a PC is abusing them. the free attack during or after charge is certainly not an abuse.

[Mort_Q]

Originally Posted by Orcus Porkus

the free attack during or after charge is certainly not an abuse.

People keep using the word certainly, when things obviously aren't certain, else we wouldn't have such long threads about them.

After the charge is not allowed, as per the charge rules.

After you resolve a charge attack, you can’t take any further actions this turn

A free action is still an action.

During the charge is arguable.

[Orcus Porkus]

Originally Posted by Mort_Q

People keep using the word certainly, when things obviously aren't certain, else we wouldn't have such long threads about them.

After the charge is not allowed, as per the charge rules.



A free action is still an action.

During the charge is arguable.

then the free action simply takes place after the turn ends.
Taking away the free attack the PC rightfully earned is totally unpracticable and unfun. Any DM here who actually does that? I prefer common sense.