D&D 4th Edition RulesAsk questions about 4th-Edition rules and the like in here. General discussion about 4E or any other game belongs in General RPG Discussion, above.
then the free action simply takes place after the turn ends.
Taking away the free attack the PC rightfully earned is totally unpracticable and unfun. Any DM here who actually does that? I prefer common sense.
The free action can't take place after your turn ends. What allowed you to use the free action? That trigger that occured on your turn and your turn is over now. Might as well take your free action next turn, after all it triggered before and it just wasn't used.
We don't allow it in our games. We prefer common sense when it doesn't go against the rules. The rules are that when you charge you're done taking actions on your turn. Certainly everyone can see that.
Um, no a Warden shouldn't be able to take his action to mark after the charge. He's already getting two movements and an attack. Good enough.
If it's a 'No Action' you can do it after the charge. If it is not a No Action, you cannot. It's really as simple as that: Anything that denies actions denies free actions.
So your turn isn't over, but you can't take actions. Is it just me or is that kind of like saying, "I'm not done with school, but I've gone to all my classes and don't have any other school activities left." It's essentially speechcraft.
No, actually, it's a rather important distinction...
Your turn isn't over, and you can't take actions, but your enemies and allies still could, if they have any appropriate free actions available to them. While I can't see it be a very common scenario, there could very well be times when it would make a difference for some other character to take a free action in the space between your charge and the end of your turn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orcus Porkus
then the free action simply takes place after the turn ends.
That depends on the specific free action granted. Some of these bonus free actions specify that they must occur on your your turn (specific overriding general).
Using the previously mentioned Nature's Wrath after a charge mark has come up several times in our game: it states, "Once during each of your turns, you can mark each adjacent enemy as a free action."
So, the Warden charges into the middle of a group of enemies and resolves his attack. He cannot mark them, since the charge prevents him from taking any additional actions on his turn. So, he ends his turn, and still can't mark because it's no longer his turn, even though normally you can take free actions outside your turn.
__________________ The Pbartender
"I don't believe it. There she goes again! She's tidied up, and I can't find anything! All my tubes and wires and careful notes and antiquated notions..." - Thomas Dolby
Nope, that's wrong.
You can still take an action point after a charge allowing you to take any kind of action you want.
Correction: You can spend an action point after a charge, since that isn't an action in of itself, but you cannot use the extra action it grants you. Because you've charged, you cannot take any more actions that turn.
__________________ The Pbartender
"I don't believe it. There she goes again! She's tidied up, and I can't find anything! All my tubes and wires and careful notes and antiquated notions..." - Thomas Dolby
Correction: You can spend an action point after a charge, since that isn't an action in of itself, but you cannot use the extra action it grants you. Because you've charged, you cannot take any more actions that turn.
So, I'll concede that it's possible to parse the relevant rules to get to this interpretation, but given that the text can also be parsed in two more liberal ways, I don't think it's valid to insist on this interpretation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PHB, p. 288
No Further Actions: After you resolve a charge attack, you can't take any further actions this turn, unless you spend an action point to take an extra action.
Spending an action point is a clear exception to the general rule that you can't take actions after a charge. The text is ambiguous as to whether the exception lets you a) spend the action point but not benefit from the extra action, b) spend the action point and benefit from the extra action only, or c) spend the action point and lift the restriction on taking other actions entirely. I think a) is the least intuitive interpretation, followed by c), with b) being almost certainly what was intended. The corner cases where spending an action point would be relevant if you couldn't take the extra action don't justify creating the exception in the first place.
Spending an action point is a clear exception to the general rule that you can't take actions after a charge.
Yes, it is... Forget the rest of your post. I brain-farted that extra little bit, "unless you spend an action point to take an extra action", which is perfectly clear.
You guys are right about that one.
__________________ The Pbartender
"I don't believe it. There she goes again! She's tidied up, and I can't find anything! All my tubes and wires and careful notes and antiquated notions..." - Thomas Dolby
The free action can't take place after your turn ends. What allowed you to use the free action? That trigger that occured on your turn and your turn is over now. Might as well take your free action next turn, after all it triggered before and it just wasn't used.
We don't allow it in our games. We prefer common sense when it doesn't go against the rules. The rules are that when you charge you're done taking actions on your turn. Certainly everyone can see that.
Where does it say in the rules that triggers for free actions have to take place outside your turn if you take the action outside your turn?
I say: The rules grant the barbarian the rampage attack, and swift charge. He earned those actions. Taking those away from him is a huge deal. It happens a lot, because barbarians charge a lot. You guys are basically invalidating half of those free attacks (the barbarian rightfully earned). You have two ways to justify that he gets these attacks despite the limiting charging rules: 1) Swift Charge and Rampage say so. You get the attacks - period. 2) The free action takes place after your turn is technically over. In limbo, or at the start of the next combatant's turn. Nothing game breaking, and only fair. As I said, nixing the barbarian's crucial class features is a really bad idea. Totally unfun!
Edit: Justification #3) The free action is "nested" inside the triggering action. It can't be separated from the trigger. In other words, the free action becomes part of the charge attack.
Last edited by Orcus Porkus; 22nd August 2009 at 03:09 PM..
Here's the thing. Spending an action point is itself a free action. A non-triggered free action, to boot. Now, yes, Charge does specifically say that spending an action point is allowed after the charge is completed, but doesn't this imply that other free actions are also allowed?
Going on the premise that only free actions are allowed if they are triggered, you could take some free actions triggered by your extra action. However, you couldn't use Elven Accuracy if you used your AP to take another attack, as this isn't a triggered action. This doesn't seem right to me.
It just seems silly to me that the rules were intended to allow you to spend certain types of free actions, and not others.
__________________ Age and Treachery beat youth and skill every time.
The way we play is pretty simple we that after a charge you lose any minor, move and standard actions you have left. So if you action point then charge bad times......the reason we chose this way is that without allowing free actions you cannot use the action point at all much less the action it generates. As the rules are quite unclear on this. We thought the was a simpler and more fun way to handle this rule. It also allows the use of any free action the can be used to gain another standard, move, or minor action to work as well.
It just seems silly to me that the rules were intended to allow you to spend certain types of free actions, and not others.
This. It's a major headache to do this. I think the term "free action" is in the rules so you have a type of action that has practically no limitations, like all the other types have, except for what the free action description says itself. The only other limitation is the DM's call.
Here's the thing. Spending an action point is itself a free action.
Not exactly. Spending an action point is not a free action... It's not an action of any kind at all. It's a player decision that grants the character an extra action, which can specifically be taken after a charge unlike other actions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orcus Porkus
This. It's a major headache to do this. I think the term "free action" is in the rules so you have a type of action that has practically no limitations, like all the other types have, except for what the free action description says itself. The only other limitation is the DM's call.
Yep... the trouble here occurs when the free action stipulates limitations, such as, "as a free action on your turn" or "at the beginning of your turn as a free action" or "when an enemy moves adjacent to you". Those specific limitations sometimes interact with other rules in a way that prevents you from using those free actions under certain circumstances.
__________________ The Pbartender
"I don't believe it. There she goes again! She's tidied up, and I can't find anything! All my tubes and wires and careful notes and antiquated notions..." - Thomas Dolby
Not exactly. Spending an action point is not a free action... It's not an action of any kind at all. It's a player decision that grants the character an extra action, which can specifically be taken after a charge unlike other actions.
I hate to keep correcting you, but spending an action point actually is a free action that you can only take during your turn--see PHB, p. 286.
That said, I agree that spending an action point is the only free action that you can take on your turn once you've completed a charge. An exception that allows a specific type of free action to be taken in no way implies a blanket exception for free actions.
I still say you guys are all missing the main point with triggered free actions. They happen on step 5 of the attack which triggered them (or earlier in some cases). Thus they happen before the charge has ended and there is no action restriction in place at that point in time. So if a barb charges, hits, downs the enemy, gets another action due to that etc, then those are resolved and are perfectly legal, as would anything triggered by them in turn be legal. Once all triggered actions are done, step 5 of the charge completes and thats it, you can't do anything more except burn an AP (which is obviously a straightforward except to "no more actions" I mean come on, stop abusing English).
This satisfies everyone. Nobody gets rooked out of a triggered action, and you can't expend actions once the charge is done, even free ones. It is 100% compatible with RAW and works fine.
As for resolving triggered actions after you end your turn? That's absurd. Anything that happens in your turn or as a consequence of anything else in your turn has to be resolved immediately. That's how the action mechanics obviously are designed to work. Maybe all of this is not so obvious to everyone, but it is exactly how any software engineer or programmer would understand the whole system working. You trigger something, its just stacked onto what your doing already and you can't save up things to do later in another turn (which is a whole other context). I mean I could write out the whole thing in formal notation, but it just isn't necessary (and how many people would understand it, lol).
Not exactly. Spending an action point is not a free action... It's not an action of any kind at all. It's a player decision that grants the character an extra action, which can specifically be taken after a charge unlike other actions.
Actually, you're wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PH1 pg. 286
SPEND AN ACTION POINT: FREE ACTION
During your turn: You can spend an action point only during your turn, but never during a surprise round.
Gain an extra action: You gain an extra action this turn. You decide if the action is a standard action, a move action, or a minor action.
Once per encounter: After you spend an action point, you must take a short rest before you can spend another. Some monsters can spend more than 1 action point per encounter.
I think another contributing factor to the issue is the fact that free actions are listed separately from "your actions" on PH1 PG. 269. There is, I think, a valid argument, that "No further actions" refers only to those listed under "Your actions" in that same rules block, "Actions on your Turn". Because they're listed seperately from Standard, Move, and Minor actions, they should be handled differently, and don't actually count as "Actions" in the strictest sense. This wouldn't be the first time that WotC used poor word choice in the rules text.
__________________ Age and Treachery beat youth and skill every time.
I hate to keep correcting you, but spending an action point actually is a free action that you can only take during your turn--see PHB, p. 286.
No worries... I rather be corrected in a firendly way, than continue being wrong and think I still right.
I must be blind this week.
Usually I'm better at this game.
__________________ The Pbartender
"I don't believe it. There she goes again! She's tidied up, and I can't find anything! All my tubes and wires and careful notes and antiquated notions..." - Thomas Dolby
I still say you guys are all missing the main point with triggered free actions. They happen on step 5 of the attack which triggered them (or earlier in some cases). Thus they happen before the charge has ended and there is no action restriction in place at that point in time. So if a barb charges, hits, downs the enemy, gets another action due to that etc, then those are resolved and are perfectly legal, as would anything triggered by them in turn be legal. Once all triggered actions are done, step 5 of the charge completes and thats it, you can't do anything more except burn an AP (which is obviously a straightforward except to "no more actions" I mean come on, stop abusing English).
This satisfies everyone. Nobody gets rooked out of a triggered action, and you can't expend actions once the charge is done, even free ones. It is 100% compatible with RAW and works fine.
this is exactly how almost all groups play it. I've played with a lot of DM's in the NYC meetup, and none of them ever denied a barbarian his free attacks triggered during a charge. There was not even a discussion about it!
Because they're listed seperately from Standard, Move, and Minor actions, they should be handled differently, and don't actually count as "Actions" in the strictest sense. This wouldn't be the first time that WotC used poor word choice in the rules text.
Yes, they DO count as actions in the strictest sense. They just don't have restrictions on them like other actions. So you can take multiples in a turn, on other people's turn, etc. Every other action type is restricted in some way; that doesn't make free actions non-actions.
And if you cannot take actions, you cannot take free actions.
It's that simple.
What you're looking for is a 'No Action' power. Those things CAN be used after a charge because those powers are -explicitly- not an action to use.
So, charge says 'You take no actions, except spending an action point' which implies you get to take that action point's action. That means free actions cannot be taken.
You also can't take free actions if you are unconscious. It's -that simple-.
Yes, they DO count as actions in the strictest sense. They just don't have restrictions on them like other actions. So you can take multiples in a turn, on other people's turn, etc. Every other action type is restricted in some way; that doesn't make free actions non-actions.
And if you cannot take actions, you cannot take free actions.
It's that simple.
What you're looking for is a 'No Action' power. Those things CAN be used after a charge because those powers are -explicitly- not an action to use.
So, charge says 'You take no actions, except spending an action point' which implies you get to take that action point's action. That means free actions cannot be taken.
You also can't take free actions if you are unconscious. It's -that simple-.
If you combine this post with Abdul's concerning charging not being finished if there are free actions to be finished ON a charge, I would have an incredibly hard time arguing against that combined view of the current issue(s).
__________________ Garthanos- fantastic awesome guy of June/09
Sporemine- fantastic awesome guy of July/09
Michaelsomething- fantastic awesome guy of August/09
Thaumaturge- fantastic awesome guy of September/09
Zinovia- fantastic awesome guy of October/09
If you combine this post with Abdul's concerning charging not being finished if there are free actions to be finished ON a charge, I would have an incredibly hard time arguing against that combined view of the current issue(s).
Oh yes, if you have free actions during the charge itself (and that includes the attack and damage resolution) then by all means, use them.
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
