D&D 4th Edition RulesAsk questions about 4th-Edition rules and the like in here. General discussion about 4E or any other game belongs in General RPG Discussion, above.
The rules say a character is not allowed to take any more actions during their turn after charging. It also says free actions can be used any time, even during another player's or enemy's turn.
I couldn't find any examples of free actions that you'd want to use after a charge (other than something like talking, which a DM probably wouldn't think twice about), but suppose for the sake of discussion there were a power that was a free action that allows you to make a secondary attack after you hit with any melee attack.
If a character charged and hit, would you allow them to use this free action to use their secondary attack? If not, how/why do you distinguish this from another free action, such as speaking?
Or, perhaps, you feel such a power would never exist. If so, explain why, and how you suppose it might break the game.
~ fissionessence
__________________
Click above to see S7S's FREE Rune Soldier Heroic Tier Playtest
also check out Silent7Seven.com for information on The Lunar Scrolls,
and the Advanced Class line including "Druid — Favored Forms"
and "Sorcerer — Aberrant Blood"
Also, how does charging interact with Action Point use? Can a character charge and then use and Action Point?
Actually, the charging rules specifically say you can't perform any more actions on your turn unless you spend an action point. So that part works fine
Thanks for the reply! Sometimes I post theoretical rules questions to help design some classes I'm working on . . . hehe.
~
__________________
Click above to see S7S's FREE Rune Soldier Heroic Tier Playtest
also check out Silent7Seven.com for information on The Lunar Scrolls,
and the Advanced Class line including "Druid — Favored Forms"
and "Sorcerer — Aberrant Blood"
It depends on the wording of the free action, I say.
1: Bestial Armor (AV):
Bestial Armor has a Daily power you can only use after a succesful charge. It is a free action.
2: Flaming Weapon:
Has a Daily Power you can use after a hit with the weapon, again a free action.
Example 1 requires that you can use a free action after you charge, so I say specific trumps general. (Otherwise the power is useless).
Whereas example 2 has enough normal situations to be applied w/o trumping the general rule after a charge. I'd say you can't use it after a charge.
The question is, would it be gamebreaking to allow free actions after a charge?
Even so the wording of the 'no further actions part of charge' is clear, is it intented to only prevent the usage of move and minor actions after a charge or all actions?
__________________ The Death is my steady companion.
I'll make him your last!
Here I come - Prepare yourself! =Irios=
If you're not satisfied with your char - ask for help!
After a charge, I might want to use the power of a Paired Weapon to uncombine, or the Avalanche Hurler's utility Quick-Draw Trick, both of which are Free Actions. On the other hand, I could probably wait until the beginning of the next character's turn to do a Free Action, so mostly, it would make no difference.
I do it this way, if you have a power that the charge triggers, like bestial armor, elemental weapons and whatnot you can use them as if they were triggered normally, other free actions you make after you make saving throws
It's a free action, which you're free to take on anyone's turn. If your DM is being a stickler and saying you can't take any more actions in your turn, simply resolve the effect while the next guy takes his turn.
I don't think they were ESPECIALLY worried about free actions. I think they were more worried about combos where a PC would be able to charge and then use move actions or minor actions to back away again. The idea being that charging into battle shouldn't be some kind of 'hit and run' tactic that you use to get an attack bonus. It should commit you to duking it out with the enemy, at least for a round, and when you do it, its pretty much ALL you do that round.
Of course there are always ways for a party to develop the charging yo-yo tactic, but it will have to rely on other character's using their abilities to 'wind the yo-yo back in'.
2: Flaming Weapon:
Has a Daily Power you can use after a hit with the weapon, again a free action.
Whereas example 2 has enough normal situations to be applied w/o trumping the general rule after a charge. I'd say you can't use it after a charge.
If the trigger is "hit with a weapon" then it is part of the charge, i.e. the basic attack (or other if using a power that allows it).
Regardless, if charging ends your turn, but you can take free actions during another combatants turn, then there is no rule preventing you from taking a free actin after a charge.
Last edited by Mort_Q; 22nd February 2009 at 08:04 PM..
If the trigger is "hit with a weapon" then it is part of the charge, i.e. the basic attack (or other if using a power that allows it).
Regardless, if charging ends your turn, but you can take free actions during another combatants turn, then there is no rule preventing you from taking a free actin after a charge.
Yeah, except in the case of the flaming weapon the free action has to be taken IMMEDIATELY after you hit with the weapon. The only other consistent interpretation (and the most absolutely straightforward one) is that you can invoke the damage ANY time after you hit with the weapon, like what, 3 rounds later? Pretty obvious THAT wasn't the intended reading, so the intended reading is 'right after you roll to hit and damage' (ie it must be the NEXT action). At best you'd be stretching that a whole bunch if you say "well, the next action is in the next guy's turn." But that is exactly the interpretation you would need to invoke in order to make it work after a charge, unless the flaming weapon power says something about 'usable after a charge attack' specifically.
All that being said my instinct would be to allow those types of weapon power activations that follow the "as soon as the blow hits you can take a free action" on the basis of the mechanic representing the PC plunging his sword into the target and then it bursts into flame right then. Still, that is a ruling based on fluff, not game mechanics or balance. So take it for what its worth, it could open the doors to some sort of obnoxiously nasty combo or somesuch.
Yeah, except in the case of the flaming weapon the free action has to be taken IMMEDIATELY after you hit with the weapon.
Right. Note that the trigger is that you hit with the weapon, not deal damage with the weapon.
I.e.: charge is the action. It consists of the steps: move, make basic melee attack, apply damage and/or effects. You may not take any actions after you charge (i.e.: after you've applied damage and/or effects).
However, the free action in this case doesn't happen after the charge action, it is an reaction which happens during the charge action (after the make basic melee attack step and before the apply damage and effects step). Technically, even these steps aren't atomic (for example, the move step actually consists of a number of discrete "move one square" sub-steps, each of which can be interrupted by an OA).
I guess arguably if something was a free action which triggered on "you deal damage", then you could get into the situation where the free action is taken after the charge action is resolved, but as others have pointed out free actions can be taken when it's not your turn, so I think the order in that case would be: charge action, attackers turn ends, attacker takes free action (triggered by damage dealt during previous charge action) during next combatants turn. Of course, then you get into the weird situation that end of turn effects may alter things such that it's no longer legal/possible for the attacker to trigger the free action...
It's possible what actually should happen is that the charge consist of the sub-steps: begin charge, move, make basic melee attack, apply damage and effects, end charge.
And the players turn looks like: begin turn, <perform other actions>, charge, end turn. Then the free action could happen after apply damage and effects, but before end charge rather than after charge and before end turn (which is prohibited by the charge rules)...
Last edited by gribble; 24th February 2009 at 12:56 AM..
Right. Note that the trigger is that you hit with the weapon, not deal damage with the weapon.
I.e.: charge is the action. It consists of the steps: move, make basic melee attack, apply damage and/or effects. You may not take any actions after you charge (i.e.: after you've applied damage and/or effects).
However, the free action in this case doesn't happen after the charge action, it is an reaction which happens during the charge action (after the make basic melee attack step and before the apply damage and effects step). Technically, even these steps aren't atomic (for example, the move step actually consists of a number of discrete "move one square" sub-steps, each of which can be interrupted by an OA).
I guess arguably if something was a free action which triggered on "you deal damage", then you could get into the situation where the free action is taken after the charge action is resolved, but as others have pointed out free actions can be taken when it's not your turn, so I think the order in that case would be: charge action, attackers turn ends, attacker takes free action (triggered by damage dealt during previous charge action) during next combatants turn. Of course, then you get into the weird situation that end of turn effects may alter things such that it's no longer legal/possible for the attacker to trigger the free action...
It's possible what actually should happen is that the charge consist of the sub-steps: begin charge, move, make basic melee attack, apply damage and effects, end charge.
And the players turn looks like: begin turn, <perform other actions>, charge, end turn. Then the free action could happen after apply damage and effects, but before end charge rather than after charge and before end turn (which is prohibited by the charge rules)...
Except the MTG trained rules lawyer in me (no, it was actually Star Fleet Battles training...) says that unless the action is an INTERRUPT it cannot happen WITHIN an action, so the charge action (the pcs standard action) must resolve first before another (free) action can take place. Except of course the flaming sword does have that funny wording about activating 'after you hit' which implies 'before you do damage'. Thus it would seem to be exceptioned into use in a charge after all. Yeah.
Well, it is all rather a lot of rules lawyering to get there, but it seems like it would be doable. Now there are probably other items that don't include all that exact wording?
unless the action is an INTERRUPT it cannot happen WITHIN an action, so the charge action (the pcs standard action) must resolve first before another (free) action can take place.
I can see where you're coming from, and agree it's ambiguous. The only thing I have to back up my POV is the weird wording on when free actions can be taken on some items/powers (which certainly imply that they can occur within another action).
Last edited by gribble; 24th February 2009 at 11:53 PM..
Except the MTG trained rules lawyer in me (no, it was actually Star Fleet Battles training...) says that unless the action is an INTERRUPT it cannot happen WITHIN an action
That's not correct. Only an interrupt can occur within an opponent's (or any other character's) action, your own actions are under no such restrictions (see for example elven accuracy). In fact, since you can't take immediate actions on your turn (and only immediate actions can be interrupts), if your statement were correct it would be impossible to use any powers that affect your own actions (like the aforementioned elven accuracy) on your own turn.
__________________ ++++++++++++
Travis Stout
"An absolute monarchy is one in which the sovereign does as he pleases so long as he pleases the assassins."
--Ambrose Bierce
I couldn't find any examples of free actions that you'd want to use after a charge (other than something like talking, which a DM probably wouldn't think twice about), but suppose for the sake of discussion there were a power that was a free action that allows you to make a secondary attack after you hit with any melee attack.
I can think of one, from the Barbarian playtest:
Swift Charge, which is a Free Action Encounter Power. If you drop an enemy to 0 HPs, you charge.
Swift Charge, which is a Free Action Encounter Power. If you drop an enemy to 0 HPs, you charge.
I'd personally allow this, but YMMV.
-O
I have a barbarian in my game and he has used that power. It sounds overpowering but it is within the rules. He wowed us with over 40+ damage(daily rage power and uses executioner's axe) at level 2 which dropped the guy when he charged and critted then he used swift charge...sucked for me ...great for the group.
__________________ Dungeons & Dragons is not just a game it is a way of life and the ultimate need for fantasy.
I actually have a case in which this problem is vitally important.
I play a "Jumper" build. It is a build that utilizes the Fighter feat Fey Charge (when you charge you may replace squares in the charge with your Fey Step racial power. If the charge hits, Fey Step is not expended). So the base Class is Fighter, but I decided to multiclass into Swordmage. This lets me take the feat Eladrin Swordmage Advance (When you use Fey Step to teleport adjacent to an enemy, you can make a Melee Basic Attack against that enemy as a FREE action). Catch the delema here? So I charge, replacing the squares of movement with my Fey Step power, then I should be able to use a free action to make a melee basic. I'm wondering whether I can make the "free-action melee basic" before the charge completes with its own melee basic (as part of the movement of the charge I used Fey Step, so the minute I reach my enemy I use a free action to attack it before the charge's melee basic actually resolves?)? It's a very confusing situation, and probably one of the few instances where this is truely a vital question. I'd love to hear if anyone has an opinion or other advice!
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
