Lightning attacks and water

[Uruush]

I've created a swamp combat encounter where there are foes on swampy islands a foot or two above the surface of knee-deep brackish water. All the water will be treated as difficult terrain, making it difficult to travel quickly from island to island. There will be artillery goblins (or some other kind of creepy swamp hag allies) on the "islands."

I've dropped hints earlier that there is a connection between the swamp hag and a young "Storm" Dragon and I'm considering having either the young Blue Dragon or a Blue Wyrmling son show up to harry the party in the middle of the goblin combat. I'm further considering having any lightning breath weapons do additional damage to character caught standing in the water between the islands.

What do you think of this idea? have any of you done something similar? What kind of extra damage would you think would be reasonable? Maybe for simplicity sake giving them "Vulnerable 5 Lightning" when they're in water? Or maybe Lighting attacks roll 2x dice? e.g. 2d6+4 Lightning attacks become 4d6+4. Of course I'd need to extend this house rule to the players vs. foes and for the remainder of the campaign to be consistent...

[Regicide]

a) 4E doesn't have physics. It's not "simulationist."
b) 4E favours players, super intelligent dragons put death icicles over their back for players to kill them more easily, they don't do anything to kill players more easily.
c) The water would make it more likely for people in it to take damage, but it would reduce the amount of damage, not increase it.

[fba827]

hmm.. i tend to opt for simplicity (and also consistency). so before anything else said, it should be a rule that you're willing to carry on with for the rest of the campaign (otherwise be prepared to explain why this water was so special).

as for simplicity.. i'd go for either... vulnerable 5 lightning, OR more of an increase range - anyone adjacent to a target also takes X damage, note that this means some people could get multiple damage (as an initial target of a blast type effect and for being adjacent to one or more other targets).... or just say any area effects increase by 1 (so blast 3 is now blast 4 and so on) and any single target attacks now also hit adjacent targets (for the same damage, or flat damage)

just some random ideas.. i'll admit i have not thought it out much.

Edit: you may get more responses (and longer thread life) on the house rules forum.

[Primitive Screwhead]

I don't think the attack should deal more damage.. I think it should just be easier to hit targets

Perhaps something like the following rule:

You may target a square of water as an opponent with a power that has the lightning keyword. This changes the powers attack line to a Burst that targets Fort. The radius of the burst is equal to half the power's level {round down} and the power loses any other effects beyond the initial damage.

Examples:
> Casting Lightning Serpent into the water would result in a Burst 4, Int vs Fort that deals 2D12 + int damage, with a miss resulting in half damage.

> Young Blue dragon breathing into the water would result in a Burst 3 within 10, + 11 vs Fort, deals 1D12+5, half on miss. {using critter level as power level}

.. perhaps some other good folks here could chime in?

[edit].. and yes, this should be in the HR forum.... thanks FBA827 for reminding me as to where I was posting!

[Uruush]

I know "A" but thought this would add an interesting dynamic feature to the combat, with players trying not to get caught in the water.

"B" sounds like an edition war prelude that I am not interested in. In any case I plan to play dragons intelligently, and I believe the 4E Dragonomicon 1 supports this decision.

Physics and design intent aside, I did not know "C." If that's the case, thank you. I will use the already present "DM's Best Friend" (p42) to give any lightning attacks a +2 in this instance.

[edit] More replies. Thanks all. Running this tomorrow morning.

[Starfox]

Considering how severe the penalties fro difficult ground already are - mainly in that you cannot shift - I don't think you need any other disincentive.

[epochrpg]

Increase the area of any burst or blast attack by 1, because of the conductiveness (i know that's not the right word). Any attack that is not an area attack becomes Burst 1. Don't increase the damage.

Any attack that DOES NOT already deal damage on a miss now deals 1/4 damage on a miss. Your sword mage will be happy.

[Oompa]

I would keep it simple and give the dragon an +2 to the attack roll against any creature that is standing in the water..

[Plane Sailing]

Originally Posted by Regicide

a) 4E doesn't have physics. It's not "simulationist."
b) 4E favours players, super intelligent dragons put death icicles over their back for players to kill them more easily, they don't do anything to kill players more easily.
c) The water would make it more likely for people in it to take damage, but it would reduce the amount of damage, not increase it.

Guys, we're going to have to start taking a firmer stand on any edition bashing at all.

Regicide earns a 3 day ban

[defendi]

Back to the working and playing well with others part of the thread (I love all editions. No need to ban me. )

Lightning is magic, so do whatever fun stuff you want, first of all. But if I were to be asked for realism at my table:

They're right. Electricity always wants to follow the easiest path of resistance. Water is easier than a person, so a person standing in water might be easier to hit (he's standing in a great conductor) but he's probably at least a little wet. All the water on him will conduct electricity first (I think the term is called "sheeting".) So basically all the electricity that the water sheets away first won't hurt him at all. After the water has it's full conductive load, then the hero takes the rest.

But HPs are abstract, and that sheeting might well be some of the luck component of HP.

Final verdict from me would be:

+2 to hit but character gains resist 5 lightning.

[Mad Hamish]

Originally Posted by defendi

Lightning is magic, so do whatever fun stuff you want, first of all. But if I were to be asked for realism at my table:

They're right. Electricity always wants to follow the easiest path of resistance. Water is easier than a person, so a person standing in water might be easier to hit (he's standing in a great conductor) but he's probably at least a little wet. All the water on him will conduct electricity first (I think the term is called "sheeting".) So basically all the electricity that the water sheets away first won't hurt him at all. After the water has it's full conductive load, then the hero takes the rest.

But HPs are abstract, and that sheeting might well be some of the luck component of HP.

Final verdict from me would be:

+2 to hit but character gains resist 5 lightning.

I'm not sure this works out too well as a realistic model.
Lighting travelling through air versus lightning through water

electric eels stun things in water but I don't know of any land animal which does it...

Nor do I think it makes a fun game.

for simplicity I'd consider +2 to hit and +5 to damage.

[Bleoberis De Ganis]

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[Piratecat]

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[Irda Ranger]

Originally Posted by Uruush

I'm further considering having any lightning breath weapons do additional damage to character caught standing in the water between the islands.

Hrmm. I understand that you're trying to use a little sim/realism to enhance the tactical complexity of your combats. That's cool. I love sim/realism myself. But be careful what you start ....

Because you'll get players who wear lightning rods on their backpacks that ground all lightning attacks away from them. And fire attack spells will do a lot less damage if the PCs are wearing their asbestos underwear, or are covered in a thick coating of swamp mud, or if they dive under the water momentarily. And god help you if you add water to acid attack spells instead of adding acid attack spells to water.

See where I'm going kid? There's an endless debate (among all Editions) about whether the rules are subject to the laws of physics in the game world or if the rules are the laws of physics in the game world (or at least an abstract but controlling model of the laws of physics in the game world). Once you establish the precedent that the rules in the book can be modified by in-game physics, well, you've just handed your players a really big toolkit to mess with the carefully crafted and play-tested game mechanic balance (and your campaign world).

I'm just sayin: "Careful what you wish for", because you ain't "tactically interesting combats" until you've unleashed a Physics or Chemistry major on the Monstrous Manual ...

[Piratecat]

One option might be to increase the area of effect instead of increasing damage. For instance, a burst 1 might become a burst 2 while in water.