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Hi all,
We just started a new 4th Ed. campaign and I decided to try out a Wizard. I wanted to go for a battlefield control sort of angle, setting up areas that would hinder our foes while the rest of the party would finish them off. (If it helps I took Illusory Ambysh, Cloud of Daggers, Ray of Frost, Icy Terrain, Sleep and Flaming Sphere.) In our first session (a dungeoncrawl) I've found that in most combats I go last because of my low initiative (+1) and by the time it is my turn, my allies are so entangled with my enemies that I can't lay down an area attack spell without hitting my own teammates. I felt ineffective because I couldn't use my daily and encounter powers and because I wasn't able to control the battlefield as I hoped I would be able to. Now I'm thinking of ditching the Wizard for something else. ("But first, to ENWorld!", I thought to myself.)
Is there something I'm doing wrong? (Maybe battlefield control isn't possible in a dungeon or in at first level? Maybe I need to ditch the control idea and trade in some of my area attack spells for targeting spells? Maybe Improved Initiative is a must have for a Wizard?)
I know it's hard to say what I may be doing "wrong" without seeing the sessions, but any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!!
PS: I don't know if it helps any but the rest of the group is made of a Paladin, a Two-Handed Fighter, a Trickster Rogue, a Warlord and a ranged Ranger.
Teamwork. Helping the Wizard set up the Area powers is no less important than helping the Rogue flank. Delaying for the Wizard is sometimes the best strategy.
Well, a friend of mine likes improved initiative specifically for that reason.
But overall, you need your party's cooperation, it's that simple.
If your team mates ignore you and just go where they like, you are going to swear at them most of the time. In my groups, before acting the players usually ask the others what they want to do and see how they can support each other. I play a wizard in one campaign and it is common for the fighter to use tide of Iron for no other reason than to push the target near another so I can hit them easily with a burst. Even the rogues pitch in with positioning strike and always take care to see if he can coordinate with me before flanking and ruining a area zone. And I try to return the favor, for example by spending some time at the front (It releases some pressure on the fighter) and selecting some powers for the sole intent of granting some easy combat advantage to the rogue.
It's a team game.
PS : you really should have at least one are effect that is at will. Scorching burst or thunderwave. My wizards has both (+ the illusion one)
Last edited by Mal Malenkirk; 2nd March 2009 at 06:22 AM..
1. Swap out ray of frost for scorching burst. You already have two single-target at-wills (illusory ambush and cloud of daggers), and slow isn't all that useful. Hitting more than one target at range is more important. Heck, personally I'd also take thunderwave instead of one of the other single-target at-wills. Part of control is killing a lot of minions, and pushing foes around.
2. Take improved initiative.
3. Work with your group to clear space for your wizard, as others have said. They need to form a battle line, and not get too staggered. Besides, a firm battle line is usually a good tactic even without a wizard.
Teamwork. Helping the Wizard set up the Area powers is no less important than helping the Rogue flank. Delaying for the Wizard is sometimes the best strategy.
This is it. I play a warlord in our game, and I'm always looking for ways to pull back my team mates to open up an area for the wizard, create safe flanks for the rogue, and have the ranger circle around to get prime shot. I watch the initiative order and yell out to the fighter to wait for the wizard, let the ranger move in for the prime shot, before he dives into the thick of things.
And by the way, you really should pick up scorching burst or thunderwave in place of one of your at-wills. These are the spells that let a wizard do his job of softening up targets.
And at low levels, you really can't expect too much for control.
Last but not least, if you check out the druid or invoker, you'll notice some nicer control spells than the wizard, so don't give up just yet, wait for Arcane Power, or until then, see if your DM will allow you to pick up an invoker at-will instead of one of your wizard at-wills.
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
here's something you should try doing, roll higher. :-P
Ok mean thing to say, but explain to your group what you're trying to do. If you group is a good one, they'll make sure that EVERYONE'S tactics work well to their advantage. A character is only as good as it's adventuring group.
__________________ Admiral Ackbarr would've made an amazing rogue...
The group I DM for has a wizard who's hit his teammates so much with fireballs of various power level over 3.5 and 4E that it's become some kind of running gag.
Actually, he has done it so much, for so many reasons and in so many circumstances that enemy intel on him acknowledges it and makes it a big part or their formation strategies.
... and there's scarcely a PC without fire resistant gear.
Well, a friend of mine likes improved initiative specifically for that reason.
But overall, you need your party's cooperation, it's that simple.
If your team mates ignore you and just go where they like, you are going to swear at them most of the time. In my groups, before acting the players usually ask the others what they want to do and see how they can support each other. I play a wizard in one campaign and it is common for the fighter to use tide of Iron for no other reason than to push the target near another so I can hit them easily with a burst. Even the rogues pitch in with positioning strike and always take care to see if he can coordinate with me before flanking and ruining a area zone. And I try to return the favor, for example by spending some time at the front (It releases some pressure on the fighter) and selecting some powers for the sole intent of granting some easy combat advantage to the rogue.
It's a team game.
PS : you really should have at least one are effect that is at will. Scorching burst or thunderwave. My wizards has both (+ the illusion one)
^ This.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KlassyReborn
here's something you should try doing, roll higher. :-P
[quote=Mengu;4690682]This is it. I play a warlord in our game, and I'm always looking for ways to pull back my team mates to open up an area for the wizard, create safe flanks for the rogue, and have the ranger circle around to get prime shot. I watch the initiative order and yell out to the fighter to wait for the wizard, let the ranger move in for the prime shot, before he dives into the thick of things.
It also helps that the wizard in your game has improved initiative and is often the first person to attack. Also consider, even when your party goes in toe to toe with the enemy before you attack, you can use illusory ambush to weaken the tough enemies. Finally don't be afraid to hold your action or ready an attack for when the battle shifts into something that allows you to drop an area attack.
I would allow intelligence modifier to apply to initiative rolls (unless I missed something and it already does.) If it applies to light AC then I think it should to initiative. In fact I think the logic of it applying to initiative makes a lot more sense than AC. Also I think intelligence would make more sense than dex at the beginning of the fight, whereas dex makes more sense into the fight.
With a +5 (which most wizards have) I think you'll be beating the dex classes even.
There's a subtle problem that I think goes beyond teamwork and initiative that Wizards (and I think any area effect class) face. Combat in 4E does not seem designed to operate at range. The system as a whole relies on having melee characters up front locking down enemies. That automatically provides a barrier to any area effect spells until the epic tier when you can leave out squares. (Aside: There's also a Paragon feat in FR which gives you penalties to hit allies).
What ends up happening therefore is that you really need your Wizard to go first, to get the maximum effect of your big area spells.
(ugh, out of time, will post more later... sorry! )
Well, I don't know exactly what you're doing wrong, but I do know that Improved Initiative is one of the most popular feats for wizards exactly because of the issue you mentioned: you want to go first so you can drop big artillery spells without your allies getting in the way.
Beyond that, the second most popular problem with wizards, particularly low level ones, is when your allies don't help you set up your shots, or worse, when they get in the way. Talk to them.
In the meantime, consider using Ray of Frost on the first round of combat. If you hit an enemy who is more than four spaces away from your allies, and if that enemy is melee, it spends its entire turn moving. There are some other small tactical hints besides that, but that's a start. You'll pick up the rest as you go.
1. Be patient and flexible. At level 1, you're not going to be the greatest controller in the world.
2. At level 3, take Icy Rays.
3. If anyone charges a melee opponent that you've frozen with Icy Rays, kick them out of your party.
4. Find a Casque of Tactics or create one (level 4 magic item). Give it to someone in your party with high dexterity and/or Improved Initiative. Ask them to swap with your initiative in circumstances where your controlling powers could play out well.
I've found it takes a while to take 4e tactics from "hmmm, that's a good idea" to "this is something we do every round." I'd advise taking some time, and working with your party. Your rogue and your warlord should be moving foes into bunches for you (and getting the heck out of the way) so you don't have to do all the targeting yourself. You should also get an AoE at-will. Blowing your encounter or dailies to get 2 guys feels kind of weak, but getting 2 guys with an at-will is a good turn.
And if you get Thunderwave, you can set up some AoEs, for the low low cost of hitting a friend with Thunderwave. Hit a group with Thunderwave, and push all the enemies together, any friends you hit get pushed in another direction (out of the way!) then throw an action point to hit the now grouped enemies. Works especially well if your warlord is tactical (and gives bonuses for action point attacks).
Overall, I'd say stick with it for a while. It takes a bit to get the groove on in 4e.
PS
__________________ You can clean up vomit, but data is always messy. - Storm's Law
I don't care if you light his face on fire and put it out with an anvil... - A. Taylor
I am playing a tiefling wizard with 20 int, and have just gotten to level 3.
Important feats: Hellfire Blood
At-will:
Thunderwave
Scorching Burst
Encounter:
Chill strike
Fire Shroud
Daily:
Flaming Sphere
Most of the time I am using Scorching Burst on 2+ opponents.
Thunderwave is usually only used if the party/me needs some more space, or I am unable to move.
Chill Strike is used to help the Rogue gain combat advantage or to stop the target from attacking without charging (you only get a standard action if dazed)
Fire Shroud is supposed to be used when we get entagled with foes instead of Thunderwave.
Flaming Sphere is pure awesome if used at the right time (at the very start of a long fight).
If your allies flank diagonally like / or \ instead of | or - you can still use Scorching burst on single foes. Just tell your allies about it and they should comply.
You are doing your job as a wizard if you are hitting 2+ opponents each round. You will the be doing 2d6+12 damage each round, doing even more damage than a rogue. Thats the "control" aspect of a low-level wizard. If I have used my flaming sphere I will easily be doing 2d6+12 + 1d4+6 damage each round.
A hint about using flaming sphere: your allies can move into a area covered by your flaming sphere if you move it before it is their turn again. It's a neat trick, especially if the initative order goes like this: ally - mob - you. That way your ally moves in and does damage, the flaming sphere does damage on your enemy and then you move it away so it doesn't do damage on an ally. Again, your allies need to stand in the corners / \, not the sides | - of your allies, otherwise they make it hard for you.
Personally I don't think I would ever play a wizard without 20 int... Reflex defense is pretty high on a lot of mobs...
Finally don't be afraid to hold your action or ready an attack for when the battle shifts into something that allows you to drop an area attack.
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