Druid weapon/implement

[Tonester]

A druid's beast form has this text in it:

You can use the properties and the powers of implements
as well as magic items that you wear, but not the
properties or the powers of weapons or the powers of
wondrous items.

My question is as follows:
Since the druid can use a staff as an implement, if the druid, in beast form, is using something like a Staff of the Serpent, would the druid benefit from the staff's property?

Property: Any melee attack made with this staff deals 1d6 poison damage

Also, does it matter if the staff is an implement which can be used as a weapon or if it is a weapon that can be used as an implement?

For example, a Staff of the Vanguard is a quarterstaff weapon which can be used as an implement. A Staff of the Serpent is a staff implement which can be used as a magic quarterstaff weapon.

So, would a druid in beast form benefit from the properties of both items, just the implement staff, or neither?

I'm leaning towards the side of allowing anything that can be used as an implement. If not, then you open up a huge can of worms... such as not allowing implement properties that are clearly allowable (like a Staff of Ruin's damage modifier). I'm especially leaning this way since all of the druid powers with the Beast and Implement keywords can also be used as basic melee attacks.

How would all of you rule on this?

[On Puget Sound]

A melee attack with the staff = an attack power (including a basic melee attack) with the keywords "melee" and "weapon", delivered while the druid is wielding the staff. An attack with the keyword "implement" is not a melee attack with the staff.

Since the staff is an implement, yes it could be argued that in beast form it is available for the druid to use with any "melee, weapon" powers that are useable in beast form. However, there are no such powers with the arguable exception of a basic melee attack. And I would rule that the druid's beast form basic melee (non-weapon) attack replaces the druid's normally available weapon melee attacks, since obviously the beastform is not hitting anything with the weapon.

[Tonester]

Yea - I think the wording, technically, allows it - but it doesn't see to be the intent.

I suggested a Staff of Ruin instead. It adds an item bonus to all damage rolls made with the staff. It isn't a full die size, but it is a consistent 2 and works on everything the druid does, and not just melee so it more than evens out in the end, imo.

[Keenath]

Originally Posted by Tonester

Since the druid can use a staff as an implement, if the druid, in beast form, is using something like a Staff of the Serpent, would the druid benefit from the staff's property?

Also, does it matter if the staff is an implement which can be used as a weapon or if it is a weapon that can be used as an implement?

I would tend to allow any enhancement that the druid could apply to his Implement powers when not in beast form.

I know, that isn't much of an answer, because it isn't really clear what weapon properties can apply to an implement attack in the first place. Whether it's a wizard or druid with a staff, a sorcerer with a knife (athame), a Spiral Tower wizard, or a swordmage, there are plenty of classes that can use a weapon as an implement.

The official FAQ answer up to now has been that you can't use weapon properties or powers on Implement attacks, which would mean you can apply properties from a staff that's listed under Staff, but not a quarterstaff that has a weapon enchantment on it. Thus, a wizard's fire blast gets the damage bonus from a Staff of Ruin, but if he's carrying a Lifedrinker Quarterstaff he gains no temporary HP unless he kills the enemy with a weapon attack (which makes it virtually useless to him).

In most cases that makes sense. Magic Weapon powers are often related to the physical properties of the weapon itself or implicitly assume the weapon is physically impacting the target. It doesn't make much sense for a Vorpal sword to make a swordmage's spells deal bonus damage, or for a Jagged dagger to deal ongoing damage when a sorcerer's spell crits, or whatever.

But then some weapons' powers don't impact the character's attacks. There seems to be no good reason a wizard shouldn't benefit from a Parrying Staff, and a Mage's Weapon is specifically designed to help out people who are mixing magic with martial. And that ruling would actually disallow the PHB2's songblades from being used with bard powers, which they are clearly intended to work with.

On the other hand, one could rule that Pact weapons and Songblades and so on, which specifically state that they can be used as an implement, are exceptions to the rule and all their powers can be used with implement powers.

How would all of you rule on this?

Your method sounds pretty good to me.

The FAQ answer seems fine to me, with the aforementioned exception.

It's not a perfect solution; it still doesn't explain why a weapon that gives a high critical die due to its physical construction would make your spells deal high critical damage. It disallows some weapons that seem like they ought to work both ways (for example, a Staff of Ruin wouldn't get to apply its damage bonus to OAs or other weapon powers). But I think the corner cases can probably be handled by DMs on a case by case basis, and some of it (such as crit damage) can be handwaved in the name of simplicity.

Actually, there are still some holes. Some weapon powers don't explicitly relate to an attack but still change the way things work. One could argue that a Staff of Power works just as well in the hands of a ranger as a wizard (it doesn't say "arcane daily or encounter power", just "daily or encounter power").

But at least this ruling stops a Staff of the Warmage from being used to increase the size of a fighter's Sweeping Blow or Thicket of Blades, which would just be bizarre.


Edit: Acutually, the PHB2 breaks this ruling completely by listing all the Sorcerer-focused daggers in the Weapons section. Sigh.

[Tonester]

Yea - all of the newer and more complicated classes have muddled this up a bit. I think we all kind of see how it is intended, despite it not being clear and there are definitely some very odd cases which have no clear way of handling the issue.

(i.e. Druid with Staff Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense... running around in Beast Mode with a Staff Weapon which is also an implement... and vice versa).