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Ok, so I've looked through the Druid powers in an attempt to see what I assume would be a gimme. Make the Druid into a bird so they can fly. I fully expected a spell where they might not be able to make attacks or whatnot while flying, and that'd be fine with me. But to be able to travel as a bird just makes sense, but there isn't one.
But clerics get Cloud Chariot (lvl 22 utility) that can 4 people well, 5 if one is on the horse on a magic carpet ride at fly 8. WTF?
Am I missing something in the wild shape rules that allows them to turn into birds normally?
Um, yeah, no. Re-read those powers and then re-read lvl 22 Cleric utility Cloud Chariot.
One lasts 5 minutes, one lasts until you take an extended rest. So...yeah, very very different. Not to mention the extra peeps you can take along with you.
I'm thinking a nice power like...
Murder of Crows - Druid Utility 22
Daily; Polymorph, Primal
Standard Action Close Burst 5
Effect:
You transform yourself and up to 5 other small to medium sized creatures into crows. While transformed you cannot attack, and all your gear stays with you and is part of the transformation. You gain a fly 8 (hover) with overland flight of 12. The effect lasts until your next extended rest, or you dismiss as a free action.
I dunno, something like that. Although since you can still attack and have cover in the Cloud Chariot I think you could make this lower.
Now, granted there is the ritual Phantom Steed, just level 6. Maybe adopt and changing that somehow to a druid ritual where you instead of getting horses you become birds, or maybe just summon big birds. *shrugs*
Um, yeah, no. Re-read those powers and then re-read lvl 22 Cleric utility Cloud Chariot.
One lasts 5 minutes, one lasts until you take an extended rest. So...yeah, very very different. Not to mention the extra peeps you can take along with you.
They last until you shift out of them. Wild Shape hasn't got a duration, and the power allows you to use Wild Shape to change into a bird or bug, says nothing about cancelling the form when the power expires.
You'll note it says, "Until this power ends, you can use wild shape to change among this form, another beast form, and your humanoid form."
So, while Wild Shape may not have a duration, this power, the one allowing you to be a tiny raven (Black Harbinger lvl 6 utility), has a duraction of the encounter your in currently. Or, if you use it outside of an encounter, 5 minutes as is stated in the PHB for how long an encounter power works outside of a combat encounter.
Yeah, I think I would just make a new ritual. I'm not really sure why the Cleric utility isn't a ritual really, it is very 'ritual like'. Given that Phantom Steed is 6th level, it seems to me it would be reasonable to do something in the low paragon level that would operate like you describe. Maybe 10th or 12th level. If the druid wants to change just his/her own shape, then maybe that could be done at 8th or so.
I can easily see a general druid shape changing ritual. There is already one that gives you the form of a tree and that's only level 2, though it is pretty limited. I would make it Religion based, take 10 minutes to cast, last up to 12 hours, and base what you can turn into and how many people you can polymorph on the Religion check result. That would seem consistent with existing rituals and not TOO overly powerful. You would be limited to natural creatures, with abilities like fly or swim available with bit higher success roll.
You'll note it says, "Until this power ends, you can use wild shape to change among this form, another beast form, and your humanoid form."
So, while Wild Shape may not have a duration, this power, the one allowing you to be a tiny raven (Black Harbinger lvl 6 utility), has a duraction of the encounter your in currently. Or, if you use it outside of an encounter, 5 minutes as is stated in the PHB for how long an encounter power works outside of a combat encounter.
Right, except that isnt what it means. It says specifically that during the encounter or 5 minutes you can change back and forth to that form, humanoid and your normal beast form. However, the ability alters your wild shape to include a new form and wild shape doenst have a duration. Therefore once you are in raven form and the encounter ends there is nothing saying you turn back, it will last as long as you maintain that shape.
You will note with the daily attack powers they are worded very differently, they say until the end of the encounter while in beast form you get X. This is too differentiate them from the utilities which alter the wild shape ability itself.
This way a druid could fly around all day at level 6, just cant attack, carry, pick up or manipulate objects.
Well, I think that may be RAI but I don't agree that is RAW. I think it should be clarified as the first sentence just doesn't work for me in getting at how you interpret it.
I would love to, but I don't agree I think perhaps a, Until your next Extended Rest would have worked better. Then I would agree that it is a way to change/augment the Wild Shape for longer than the encounter.
It seems to me it's quite deliberately worded to make it clear that you can stay in raven form as long as you like.
Wild Shape does not have a duration. It changes your form, and you stay that way until you change it again. Black Harbinger explicitly gives you a window (until the end of the encounter) during which you can use Wild Shape to turn into a raven. It very deliberately does not say that at the end of the power you change back. Black Harbinger and similar powers do not even have the polymorph keyword. They give you a new use for Wild Shape, that's all, and Wild Shape has no duration.
Yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree then. What is the email for Wizards customer service for this, I've never used them but wouldn't mind asking about this for my first one.
You're saying as long as you are in Raven form at the end of the encounter your are good to go for the rest of your natural born life essentially? If after the encounter is done and you are in Raven form (which I'm still not sold on) and you transform again you're now screwed out of transforming back into a Raven.
I just don't agree with you all with it stating until the end of the encounter. I think it was meant as a battlefield spell in which the druid can move about the battlefield and change forms then move to another point and change and attack again. As that it is a pretty neat spell, and certainly if you have a decent DM I can see it being quite useful, in fact easily as useful as the other utility powers of that level.
What would make it exceedingly powerful, however, is you guy's interpretation which would allow the person to stay in raven form for hours and fly like that.
Last edited by Tellerve; 23rd March 2009 at 06:14 AM..
A power does not need to say 'until end of encounter' for their effects--all powers are assumed to have a maximum duration of 'until end of encounter or five minutes' unless they state otherwise.
It is indeed a general principle with powers that they end at the end of the encounter. There are a few explicit exceptions, and some powers that it would make sense to use outside of an encounter, in which case they work for 5 minutes (again unless there is some explicit text saying otherwise).
Outside of combat or for long duration effects you pretty much have to go with rituals. Aside from a very few high level utility powers that is really the only way to get long lasting effects.
So why wouldn't the best solution be a ritual? Especially when we already have the Tree Shape ritual to use as an example. It seems nearly perfect, just up the level to an appropriate level and make it allow various shapes. Call it "Wild Shape" or "Shape of the Wild" or whatever. You could make a series of such rituals for different shapes, but really it seems easier to simply make it use a Nature check result to determine what shapes are available when you cast it. If the check isn't good enough to get the shape you really wanted, then it is functionally a check failure, though you would have the choice to become a squirrel even though you wanted to be a raven ideally. The definition of success really being up to the caster.
At high levels the ritual, or a variation of it, could allow transforming multiple characters. There could also be versions with somewhat less strictures placed on it, like ability to take damage without dispelling the ritual, etc.
The casting cost can be relatively low, it is really in essence just an extension of the character's existing powers.
It could work something like:
Wild Shape
You assume the form of a creature of the wilderness.
Level: 6
Category: Exploration
Time: 10 minutes
Duration: 6 hours
Component Cost: 50gp
Market Price: 360gp
Key Skill: Nature
You transform into the shape of a natural beast. While you are in this state you are indistinguishable from a normal natural beast to ordinary senses. You retain all of your statistics, but you cannot use any of your powers or perform rituals. All your clothing and gear transforms along with you. The ritual ends and you revert to your normal form if you take any damage or take action, or at the end of the ritual's duration.
You must make a Nature check in order to determine the type of form which you can assume. After making the check you may choose any form allowed by your success roll.
[pre]
Nature Check Result Allowed Forms
9 or lower Medium or Small size
10-19 Tiny size, swim, climb, or terrain walk at speed 6
20-29 Fly, speed 8
30+ Large or Huge size, Hover
[/pre]
This probably needs a bit of editing, but it should give you a pretty good idea of where I'm going with this. Perhaps animal types could also be related to the check roll, so low level casters could mostly be just mammals, while higher levels would get you into birds, fish, insects, etc.
A power does not need to say 'until end of encounter' for their effects--all powers are assumed to have a maximum duration of 'until end of encounter or five minutes' unless they state otherwise.
So I guess you're saying that Wild Shape into anything always wears off in five minutes or at the end of the encounter? I see now that this does appear to be RAW, but it sure does feel odd to me. A druid can change to beast-form at will... but has to take at least a minor-action "breather" every five minutes? I'm not convinced that was the intent.
We're -not- talking about the Wild Shape power. We're talking about powers that shape you into other creatures, like birds. The Wild Shape power is an at-will, and that 'breather' can be an instant, and is negligible. The others are dailies, and therefore require extended rests to get beyond that single encounter use. That's no subtle difference between them.
If a Druid can turn into a bird as an encounter power that lasts the entire encounter, then that means he can be the bird (very) roughly 50% of the time.
This I'm basing on the observation an encounter lasts about 5 minutes, and so does a short rest.
If, on the other hand, the power is an at-will (again lasting an encounter), then you would be right: the druid would then be able to spend 99% of his time in bird shape, only "flickering" once every five minutes.
And in this case I would be inclined to agree to just let the Druid spend hour after hour in bird form.
But only in this, latter, case (which I do not think has any bearing on the real circumstances)...
If a Druid can turn into a bird as an encounter power that lasts the entire encounter, then that means he can be the bird (very) roughly 50% of the time.
This I'm basing on the observation an encounter lasts about 5 minutes, and so does a short rest.
If, on the other hand, the power is an at-will (again lasting an encounter), then you would be right: the druid would then be able to spend 99% of his time in bird shape, only "flickering" once every five minutes.
And in this case I would be inclined to agree to just let the Druid spend hour after hour in bird form.
But only in this, latter, case (which I do not think has any bearing on the real circumstances)...
The whole issue of using at-wills outside of an encounter and what the limitations should be is a lot more general question, it also comes up with a lot of at-will powers. I believe there have been several CS answers posted around here on the subject. The long and short of it is there is no official hard and fast rule. It is entirely up to the DM as to how they want to handle it.
If a DM decides that constant use of an at-will outside an encounter is not causing a game balance problem or subverting some aspect of the game, then it makes sense to allow it. OTOH if a character is gaining some really big advantage from it or the power use is just giving the party a cheap way of getting past an encounter, then the DM is certainly within their rights to rule along the lines of "well, you can use the power 10 or 15 times, so it is at-will, but it does tire you out eventually and so at some point you need to take a rest" that is reasonable as well. Or a DM could just rule that it cannot be used at all outside of an encounter, although it will be helpful to supply some rationale (fluff) for that.
Avoiding the whole question is one nice thing about providing rituals. We know they are designed for use outside of encounters, and can give some advantages at times during an upcoming encounter. Plus you get to put some kind of tangible cost or other limiting conditions on it.
We're -not- talking about the Wild Shape power. We're talking about powers that shape you into other creatures, like birds. The Wild Shape power is an at-will, and that 'breather' can be an instant, and is negligible. The others are dailies, and therefore require extended rests to get beyond that single encounter use. That's no subtle difference between them.
Now I'm confused again. The Black Harbinger power does not polymorph you into bird form. It changes the rules for another power, allowing you to become a raven by using Wild Shape. That's the whole reason we're having this discussion... it works by modifying Wild Shape, and Wild Shape is an at-will with no explicit duration.
There's no argument that the effect of Black Harbinger ends at the end of an encounter. It's the effect itself that's in question. It appears (to some of us) to be worded to mean "add tiny raven to the list of Wild Shape forms". So until the end of the encounter, you can Wild Shape into that form. But what happens when you're in that form at the end of the encounter?
One side seems to be saying that the raven form ends immediately because Black Harbinger ends (and you presumably return to humanoid form).
The other side says that you lose the ability to Wild Shape to raven form, but you stay in your current form until the Wild Shape duration expires. Now if Wild Shape also expires at the end of the encounter (which seems to be RAW for powers with no explicit duration), then the raven form ends and this winds up being equivalent to the previous interpretation.
But ultimately we -are- talking about Wild Shape, because all the Druid utility powers we're talking about do -nothing- by themselves but give you new uses for Wild Shape.
I think perhaps a, Until your next Extended Rest would have worked better. Then I would agree that it is a way to change/augment the Wild Shape for longer than the encounter.
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