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There have been numerous threads here about PC - Monster disparity in attacks and defenses. But skill disparity worries me even more. My game is only at level 8 yet, but I can see this coming.
A PC at lvl 30 gains the following skill modifiers
+15 for level
+4 in an ability constantly increased (+1 in a stat with minimal increase)
+6 item bonus in a skill you favor heavily (these things are costly!)
+3 if you go for Skill Focus
This is a spread from +16 to +28, with almost all skills getting +16 to +20.
A monster at level 30 gains the following improvements
+15 for level
+15 for ability increase
This is +30 to all skills. (I included skill training, as both characters and monsters can have that at level 1).
We thus have a disparity of 2 to 14 points. This makes opposed skill checks fairly much impossible at higher levels, at least in skills you do not put every effort into keeping high. If you use the new expertise and defense feats, you will have precious few feats to put into skills.
Can people who have actually played at these levels chime in; does my hypothetical model hold true, or is there some unforseen factor I havn't seen.
However, I decided to make a quick check with an ancient red dragon. He has perception +26. A character with trained stealth and a starting 18 dex (raised every time) ends up with a +28.
Last edited by Nikosandros; 26th March 2009 at 01:06 PM..
The Wisdom of that red dragon is 22, which is awfully low if its supposed to have gained a +15 bonus over levels - it indicates a level 1 Wis of 7. The level 7 Red Dragon has a Wis of 14. This gives the lvl 30 dragon +1/3 levels to Wisdom rather than +1/2 levels.
Maybe this is the solution; the monster don't follow the guidelines in the DMG for creating your own monsters. I saw pretty early on a fan-written article on monster creation; it suggested that monsters get a -1/5 levels penalty to basically everything, specifically including stat modifiers and level bonuses.
The Ancient Red has a Will defense of 42. That is 20 points higher than its Wis modifier.
Shouldn't the idea be that the PCs will find some way to max out the skills they deem important, then calculate monster's skill ranks based off that?
For example, at lv30, a PC might have...
+15 level
+5 trained
+6 item
+3 skill focus
+2 racial
+9 stat
+1 background
For +41. It is like virtually auto-success...
Shouldn't the idea be that the PCs will find some way to max out the skills they deem important, then calculate monster's skill ranks based off that?
What calculation should we employ? If a PC has gone to that much trouble to max out a particular skill, then arguably a near autosuccess is appropriate. Do we give a monster a 10% chance of beating a maxed PC? A 5% chance?
There have been numerous threads here about PC - Monster disparity in attacks and defenses. But skill disparity worries me even more. My game is only at level 8 yet, but I can see this coming.
A PC at lvl 30 gains the following skill modifiers
+15 for level
+4 in an ability constantly increased (+1 in a stat with minimal increase)
+6 item bonus in a skill you favor heavily (these things are costly!)
+3 if you go for Skill Focus
This is a spread from +16 to +28, with almost all skills getting +16 to +20.
A monster at level 30 gains the following improvements
+15 for level
+15 for ability increase
This is +30 to all skills. (I included skill training, as both characters and monsters can have that at level 1).
We thus have a disparity of 2 to 14 points. This makes opposed skill checks fairly much impossible at higher levels, at least in skills you do not put every effort into keeping high. If you use the new expertise and defense feats, you will have precious few feats to put into skills.
Can people who have actually played at these levels chime in; does my hypothetical model hold true, or is there some unforseen factor I havn't seen.
I think your calculation of "+15 for level, +15 for ability increase" is flawed. Monsters do gain +15 for level between levels 1-30, but in order to gain +15 in "Ability modifier" their abilities would have to increase by 30 points over the course of levels 1-30, which doesn't actually happen.
It is possible that you are confused because monster stat blocks include the half level bonus under the stat modifier. For example, a Rimefire Griffon (level 20 skirmisher, PHB 147) has a listed Wisdom of 18 (+14). The +14 includes the +4 stat modifier and the +10 half level bonus. However this half level bonus is not "added twice" in the case of a skill. In the same example, the Griffon's Perception is +14 - the same as his listed Wisdom "modifier", not that plus a half level bonus.
Basically, the two +15's in your calculation are really the same +15 (the half level bonus), that you're trying to count twice.
Originally Posted by DMG1, page 184 (Monster Design Steps)
3. Determine Ability Scores. It’s helpful to think of ability scores in pairs, each pair corresponding to one of the three defenses (Fortitude, Reflex, and Will). Ability scores also help determine the monster’s attack bonuses, ability and skill checks, and Armor Class. On average, the highest ability score of a pair is equal to 13 + one-half the monster’s level. For example, the target score for an 8th-level monster is 17 (13 + 4). However, set the ability that governs the monster’s primary attacks to be 3 higher, or 16 + one-half the monster’s level. An 8th-level monster that relies on melee attacks should have a Strength of 20.
This is what my entire argument is based on. If this is not how actual MM monsters are done (I've not crunched the monster stats), then the design guidelines are wrong and I might be barking up the wrong tree.
MM monsters follow the guidelines if you remember that guideline != rule. There are HUGE discrepancies between the formulas and the actual outcomes. There were numerous threads on this back with 4E first came out, and eventually it died down with the consensus (in so far as there was one) being "this is not 3.5. there are not strict rules for how to make monsters. you have these guidelines, and can tweak from there as needed to make an effective monster." the MM stats thread has some analysis of "how well do monsters meet the expectations" ... that is, what is the average of (AC - level) for all the monsters... you'd expect it to be 0 if they all followed the rules 100%... and it's not. There's some over/under... I think it's off by less than 1, but not by much... when you consider that to be off by 1, over what, 200+ monsters? requires a lot of variance.
Which makes my original reasoning correct; a benchmark monster at lvl 30 should beat a benchmark PC at level 30 in an opposed skill check every time. The only thing that can save the PC is if the benchmark is not applied.
However, if the benchmark is not in use, it might be another story entirely. I am starting to think it isn't.
Which makes my original reasoning correct; a benchmark monster at lvl 30 should beat a benchmark PC at level 30 in an opposed skill check every time. The only thing that can save the PC is if the benchmark is not applied.
However, if the benchmark is not in use, it might be another story entirely. I am starting to think it isn't.
Sorry, Starfox, but that was quite incomprehensible to me... could you elaborate?
Keep in mind that that +30 is really only a +30 if you treat the monster as being trained. Which means that for every skill NOT listed it is simply an ability check for the monster. These -lower- modifier checks are meant for the characters with weaker skills. The skills the monster has trained are meant from those characters that specialized in that particular skill. Most monsters have perception because if they did not the rogue would be board as stealth would be too easy. Most of the monster's don't have athletics or acrobatics so whats to stop me (the STR based random other character) from walking up and trying to grab it? Or What about those monsters that don't have insight, I can bluff and intimidate them pretty well without having to be spec'd for it.
Sorry, Starfox, but that was quite incomprehensible to me... could you elaborate?
I was trying to recap my argument and show how it applies under the benchmark system, but not necessarily i real play against real monsters.
In the original rules the only cases this applies to is Bluff vs. Insight and Stealth vs. Perception (on the top of my head). The reason this came up was because we were thinking of how to handle acrobatic stunts, and some kind of opposed roll was proposed.
A PC at level 30 who is challenging a monster in a skill competition will generally only do it if they are weighted to be good in that skill:
+15 Half-level
+6 for ability modifier
+5 for training
+4 item (these are dirt cheap at level 30)
That's an easy +30. You could have a +8 or more for your ability if it's your primary, you could have a +6 item, and you could have skill focus. That all would get you to +37.
A monster's good stat (from the DMG p184 guidelines) should have an ability score of 13+half-level, or 16+half-level in the primary attack ability. Therefore a level 30 monster will have at most a +10 from his ability modifier. All together his skill check will be:
+15 half-level
+10 ability modifier
+5 training
That's also 30, but only if the ability score for this skill is important to the monster. The monster in the MM with the highest Wisdom is the Godforged Colossus (level 29) with a 34. He's not trained in either Insight or Perception though, so he's only got a +26 in both. The highest Insight in the book is a couple monsters with +27. The highest Perception is Orcus (level 33) with a +28. So even the best monsters in the book are only just good, whereas a PC who is great at a skill will far, far out-strip the monster.
I've not yet seen my players have a problem with beating monsters' skills in Stealth v. Perception or Bluff v. Insight competitions. Yeah a character who neglected Stealth in every way would probably be spotted, but everyone who puts in a little effort for the skill has no problems.
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