D&D 4th Edition RulesAsk questions about 4th-Edition rules and the like in here. General discussion about 4E or any other game belongs in General RPG Discussion, above.
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If an Adult Red Dragon breathes on a 3rd Level Fighter in 3.5 D&D or even 2nd Editition AD&D, the odds are pretty good that he is toast. If the same thing happens in 4E, he is probably just hurt (and probably not even bloodied). Where's the beef?
Also, dragons, and most other solos, in 4E are rather weak and lack the damage potential to be really dangerous. They are just huge sacks of HP.
__________________ Everything about RPGs is subjective, so everything I say about them is my opinion and not hard facts
Having a backstory is good. Using this backstory in game is better. And for that you need background skills.
4E, the game where you play HSMFOS
Heroic
Only good, or at least unaligned adventurers are supported and no monster you can fight is good aligned.
Super-
The PCs become masters in any skill automatically and it is impossible for them to be bad at a mundane task
Mutants
Compared to NPCs of the same strength, PCs poses a ungodly amount of HP and can withstand huge mountains of punishment. That or they can spontaneously regenerate wounds.
From Outer Space
Yet despite no matter how powerful the PCs become, they can never do anything special what the "natives" (=NPCs) can do like animating a skeleton.
Combats are intended to take more than one round to resolve now. The 4e fighter is probably screwed, its just going to take more than six seconds.
You already knew that though. What do you actually want to discuss, if anything?
I understand that. I am just puzzled that with SUCH a power level discrepency that the encounter is not an immediate slam dunk. I would love to pick the designers' brains and find out the reasoning behind this design decision.
I understand that. I am just puzzled that with SUCH a power level discrepency that the encounter is not an immediate slam dunk. I would love to pick the designers' brains and find out the reasoning behind this design decision.
Maybe they didn't want to balance the game around creating specific aesthetic outcomes in fights that are foregone conclusions that the players will lose.
If an Adult Red Dragon breathes on a 3rd Level Fighter in 3.5 D&D or even 2nd Editition AD&D, the odds are pretty good that he is toast. If the same thing happens in 4E, he is probably just hurt (and probably not even bloodied). Where's the beef?
Players are now entitled to level 30 and epic paths. If players die before level 30 the developers have found through market research the game will not be considered fun.
Admin here. I'm pretty sure you can make your point without trolling. Next time, please do so. ~ Piratecat
Last edited by Piratecat; 27th March 2009 at 05:46 AM..
If I'm an adult red dragon wanting to take down a 3rd level fighter with around 47 HP's, I use Double Attack, action point, Double Attack. That's 8d8+28 damage, average rolls should do the trick.
I've done something like that to a 3rd level paladin with a level 6'ish elite.
Quote:
I understand that. I am just puzzled that with SUCH a power level discrepency that the encounter is not an immediate slam dunk. I would love to pick the designers' brains and find out the reasoning behind this design decision.
This is not a bug, it's a feature. PC's are able to see when they are outmatched in an encounter, and can handle it accordingly with a strategic retreat. This gives the DM tools for creating "run for your life" situations with less of a TPK risk.
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
You'll find that the limited damage expression for one shot devices more than adequate to snuff a lower level pc.
Presuming of course that you are insisting on following every rule except those of good form and appropriate encounter level; there is no reason a dragon would not have such a device or ability/template at hand.
Players are now entitled to level 30 and epic paths. If players die before level 30 the developers have found through market research the game will not be considered fun.
That's an interesting point. I had not considered that.
Wow, 6 answers and already 2 snipes by ppl who don't even play 4th and thus can have no idea what they are talking about.
Dragonbreath in older edition was quite binary. Either the players found a way to negate it, at which point the dragon was better off not using his most iconic ability. Then the dragon is reduced to claw/claw/bite like an overgrown lizard.
Or it was too powerful, killing the mage and rogue outright on a failed save. That does make for exciting stories, but makes certain game elements, such as an ambush by a dragon, rather difficult to do. Furthermore it makes the initiative check in a combat extremely important.
The 4th Dragon Breath is nasty. It will hit all or many of the PC, costing most of them ~1/4 of their hit points and giving them a crippling side effect. that is enough to be scary without being binary.
You're not supposed to pit an adult red dragon (level 15 solo according to MM) against a 3rd level party. Why? Because the DMG says so. And why does it say so? Because the 4E mechanic breaks down if you do. And why's that? Because the 4E mechanic is relative, not absolute. I understand not everyone agrees with this point of view, but this is how I see things and I do not wish to go into the entire absolute vs relative thing again until we derive towards whether a level 20 minion actually has a single hit point when facing a hypothetical farmer with no combat training whatsoever. But, assuming you agree with the "relative" apprach, i.e. the level 20 minion only has a single hit point for the level 20 opponents but would have more hit points than the farmer can count against him, then that's why the adult red dragon's stats in the MM would not allow him to kill a level 3 fighter with a single breath weapon.
Now, back to your question, what if a level three party met an adult red dragon? Well, I think you then need to redesign the dragon. An adult red dragon's breath is supposed to deal 2d12 + 6 fire damage to level 15 opponents. Against level 3 opponents? Have it deal 12d12 and fry the whole lot if you wanna. The creature is way too strong for them anyway and presumably that's the point you want to carry across.
...This is not a bug, it's a feature. PC's are able to see when they are outmatched in an encounter, and can handle it accordingly with a strategic retreat. This gives the DM tools for creating "run for your life" situations with less of a TPK risk.
I appreciate the reasoned response Mengu, but I guess I still don't like it. When a 3rd level fighter sees a big dragon in my campaign, I want him to first, crap in his armor and second, run like hell. None of this we want to give you time to retreat so your precious PC doesn't die. No siree Bob. Turn and run or stand and fry!
I appreciate the reasoned response Mengu, but I guess I still don't like it. When a 3rd level fighter sees a big dragon in my campaign, I want him to first, crap in his armor and second, run like hell. None of this we want to give you time to retreat so your precious PC doesn't die. No siree Bob. Turn and run or stand and fry!
This is all fine and dandy with "iconic" things like a Dragon. People know what Dragons are, and that they're supposed to be powerful. But what about non iconic things that no one has any out of game info on? Sometimes the only way to figure out if something can kill you would be to see how powerful it is. In which case that means you only know something is powerful enough to kill you in one shot, after it does. Kind of lame in my opinion.
Aside from that, as others have stated, through things like action points, dragons CAN pretty easily take that fighter out if they want. Plus the fighter can't harm it. That AC is huge.
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