Making effective use of the Bard's Multiclass Mastery

[jbear]

Originally Posted by Smeelbo

I've mostly been thinking about Cunning Bards, since they appeal to me. I think the answer is to look primarily at the initial M/C feats, and think of them as feats that yield encounter powers. Since typically feats modify powers rather than yield new ones, I think that is the value of bard multi-multi-classing. More encounter powers.

I think a viable Cunning Bard M/M/C build can be done emphasizing just Charisma and Intelligence. I would stick to ranged powers, and avoid weapon powers. Unfortunately, Arcana is already mandatory for Bards, which weakens Warlock and Wizard M/Cs, but still, they can all use wands, and more encounter powers is a good thing.

When I make a specific build, I'll post it here.

Smeelbo

Arcana can be changed to another skill when you level up and then you can reaquire it when you take, say the wizard multi-class feat.

Although you are trained in it automatically as a bard, I haven't read that it can't be retrained anywhere. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I had my Bard retrain to History at level 2 and then Arcana, reaquired by taking Wizard Multiclass feat.

[Smeelbo]

Originally Posted by Mengu

Say you're playing a halfling bard, and want a bit of striking nova power. Picking up Ranger and Rogue multiclass can give you exactly that.

Ranger yes, because Hunter's Prey can apply to any attack, but Sneak Attack only applies to light blades, crossbows, or slings. Is the bard really going to "nova" with those weapons?

Ranger is one of the best M/C feats, as it gives you access to any Ranger skill, especially Perception, and Hunter's Prey applies to any attack. While Thievery can be very useful, Jack of All Trades will get you +3 at Theivery, which is almost +5. Depends on whether you plan on being the primary trap disabler.

Originally Posted by Mengu

And you can add two more skills to your arsenal, one of which is thievery that you do not have access to as a bard, and get a racial bonus to.

Skills that, if you had taken Jack of All Trades instead, you'd already be +3 at, which, I point out at the risk of redundadundancy, is almost +5.

Originally Posted by Mengu

A gnome bard could do some fun stuff with paladin multiclass for marking...

Working at cross-purposes with Misdirected Mark, when is a very good At-Will...

Originally Posted by Mengu

warlock multiclass for eyebite and fade away shenanigans...

Wasting the skill training in Arcana.

Originally Posted by Mengu

rogue multi-class for extra damage...

Which is unlikely to apply to any decent bard attack.

Originally Posted by Mengu

ranger multiclass for stealth (to put that racial +2 to good use).

Or Perception, but yes, Ranger M/C is probably the best M/C feat for practically anyone, including most bards.

Originally Posted by Mengu

but it certainly opens doors for some interesting options.

Perhaps, but it is less good than it looks, I think, for the reasons I've stated.

Originally Posted by Artoomis

I'd rather have the trained skills plus Bardic Knowledge. +7 for trained skils

Exactly what I said earlier. For those skills Bardic Knowledge covers, training them can be very worthwhile, while for utility skills, such as Stealth, Athletics, Perception, and so on, Jack of All Trades is a very efficient feat.

Originally Posted by Artoomis

Jack of All Trades is GREAT is most of your skills are untrained, though

Jack of All Trades is very good for those skills that don't really require training but which are likely to be useful, like Perception, Athletics, Endurance, Heal, Stealth. I'd say if you have three or more skills that are useful to you but are untrained, then Jack of All Trades can be an excellent choice.

Bard is the first leader class that really appeals to me as a player. While I haven't settled on an order for feats yet, I plan on taking Jack of All Trades fairly early, and to take Bardic Knowledge later when I have enough knowledge skills trained. With a gnome bard and starting 18 CHA/INT, that leaves no more than 12s starting in his other stats. I'm not yet certain what multi-classing fits well into that build.

I still don't understand how Sneak Attack is supposed to be useful to a Bard. My Ranger has M/C Rogue for various reasons, and the opportunity to sneak attack has come up only a few times in the first four levels of play. If a character isn't focused on light blades, crossbows, or god forbid, slings, Sneak Attack simply isn't going to come up very often.

Originally Posted by Usumcasane

Human Bard multiclassed into Cleric and Shaman. That nets you all the "knowledge" skills trained, gets you a little extra healing, and with the right armor (Warding Spirit), a bonus to AC vs. Opportunity Attacks. That's 2 feats. if you get Bardic Knowledge and Jack of All Trades, you have a +7 bonus to six skills and a +3 bonus to nine other skills. That is the most efficient use of feats to skill bonuses possible.

I like how you think.

Originally Posted by JBear

Arcana can be changed to another skill when you level up and then you can reaquire it when you take, say the wizard multi-class feat.

Although you are trained in it automatically as a bard, I haven't read that it can't be retrained anywhere. Correct me if I'm wrong.

PHB, page 28, Retraining Skills: "You can't replace a skill if it's...predetermined by your class..."

Honestly, I haven't seen anything in this thread that refutes my argument in my second post of this thread.

Now I'd consider a house rule along the lines of something like "If a multiclass feat gives you skill training in a skill that you have already trained, and you cannot retrain that skill, you gain a +1 untyped bonus to that skill for every such multi-class feat." Something.

I really like Usumcasane's idea, but my heart is set on a gnome bard for now. I am going to think about his idea, though.

Smeelbo

[Nikosandros]

Just a marginal note, but Pact Initiate gives training in any one warlock skill, not necessarily arcana.

[Klaus]

Originally Posted by Nikosandros

Just a marginal note, but Pact Initiate gives training in any one warlock skill, not necessarily arcana.

Indeed. My Rogue took Intimidate from it.

Hey! I just realized I can now benefit from Rattling attacks!

[Doctor Proctor]

Just a quick note on multiclassing to get Sneak Attack. Yes, it only works with certain weapon groups, but the Rapier isn't a bad weapon and qualifies as a Light Blade. When you're adding 3d6 (Sneak Attack + Quarry) to that once per encounter that's a nice little damage boost. Also, while the Backstabber feat will only apply to the Sneak Attack dice, thery'll be making up the majority of the extra damage so it's not a bad feat investment as it turns that extra damage into 2d8 + 1d6.

For the cost of an extra feat, you can even get access to better weapons. Street Thug will let you use a mace, and then Tunnel Stalker and Longsword Finesse will let you use some different weapons provided you're the right race. It reduces the sneak die by one, but it's something workable.

[LittleFuzzy]

Originally Posted by Smeelbo

I still don't understand how Sneak Attack is supposed to be useful to a Bard. My Ranger has M/C Rogue for various reasons, and the opportunity to sneak attack has come up only a few times in the first four levels of play. If a character isn't focused on light blades, crossbows, or god forbid, slings, Sneak Attack simply isn't going to come up very often.

Smeelbo

And what weapon-using Small character isn't going to seriously consider the available light blades? Only +3 proficiency bonuses available to them are on light blades and Versatile weapons, and Small characters can't use both a versatile weapon and a shield.

[DracoSuave]

Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy

And what weapon-using Small character isn't going to seriously consider the available light blades? Only +3 proficiency bonuses available to them are on light blades and Versatile weapons, and Small characters can't use both a versatile weapon and a shield.

Not to mention, if you're going bard/rogue/warlock, well you're probably going to keep your implements to a manageable level. That means using slots for multiple purposes, which means you'll need either a songblade or a pact blade.

And pact blade means a light blade.

[jbear]

I think I like the look of the Dragonborn Bard (Virtue of Valor) with Cold Breath based on CON.

11 in Str +2 = 13
15 in CON Lvl 4 +1 = 16 Lvl 8 +1 (all other levels here)
12 in DES Lvl 4 +1 = 13
13 in INT
8 in WIS
16 in CHA +2 = 18 lvl 8 +1 (all other levels here)

Trained in Diplomacy, Intimidate, Athletics and Streetwise

Feats
Lvl 1 Multiclass Ranger: Hunter's Prey +1d6 dmg (2 rounds)/ encounter + Endurance
Lvl 2 Multiclass Warlord: Inspiring Word 1/Day + History
Lvl 4 Multiclass Barbarian: +2dmg for encounter 1/Day + Perception
Lvl 6 Multiclass Rogue: Sneak Attack +2d6 dmg 1/encounter +Thievery
Lvl 8 Multiclass Warlock: Eyebite + Bluff
Lvl 10 Sacrifice to Caiphon (recharge failed encounter powers)

Paragon Path: War Chanter

Lvl 11 Dragonbreath Warrior (extra 1[w] cold dmg on next melee atk after using breath)
Lvl 12 Lasting Frost: target hit with Cold power gains vulnerable 5 cold
Lvl 14 Empowered Dragon Breath (d10's dmg instead of d6's)
Lvl 16 Improved Valor (+3 Temp. HP to Virtue of Valor)
Lvl 18 Slaying Action (apply Sneak Attak Dmg a second time using AP)
Lvl 20 Enlarge Dragonbreath

Epic Destiny: Fatesinger

Lvl 21 Student of Athanaeum (recharge Daily power 1/day)

From here not too sure: Out of these I think maybe

Epic Resurgence (recharge Encounter power on Critical)
Supreme Inspiration (heal 2 targets with Inspiring Word)
Agressive Leadership (Bloodied Allies do +2 Dmg)
+4 WILL
+4 FORT
+4 REF

At will: Warsong + Misdirected Mark

Encounter: Blunder, Impelling Force, Unluck,...
Daily: Stirring Shout, Satire of Bravery,Thunderblade...
Utility: Inspire Competence, Song of Conquest, Veil...

Anyway, looks like a whole lot of fun and chocked full of flavour and tactical trickery!