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So several of the avenger powers use "hit or miss" instead of "attack". For exaple, Bond of Retribution says: "The first time an enemy other than the target hits or misses you before the end of your next turn...." It seems like it could just as easily say: "The first time an enemy other than the target attacks you before the end of your next turn...."
Any ideas on why it is worded this way? The only thing I can come up with is to clarify the that the enemy's attack resolves before the effect takes place, but it seems unnecessarily awkward to me.
My guess is thats because other powers sometimes kick in on a hit, others on a miss, they said on a hit or miss to avoid any doubt for when the Avengers kicks in.
It may also clarify timing issues - it's triggered by the attack roll being made and compared to your defense. "When you're attacked" isn't so clear.
This is more or less how I took it. Basically, it works like an Immediate Reaction -- taking place after the attack -- but it doesn't use up your once-only-per-round Immediate Action, and it can happen on your own turn.
If the power just read "when you're attacked," some would try to interpret it as happening before the attack itself is resolved as a "hit" or "miss."
Yeah, there were some other powers that used the more obvious language and they had to issue errata to clarify things. So now they use the more technically exact wordings for certain things. PHB2 has quite a bit more exactly written powers and whatnot. Of course they still manage to create corner cases and mess up once in a while.
I agree that it's a timing issue. "When you're attacked..." triggers after the intention to attack is declared but before the attack roll is resolved. "Hit or miss" triggers after the attack roll is resolved.
How about the damage from the paladin's divine challenge? The rules state that it triggers the first time when an enemy makes an attack that does not include the paladin as a target. Does this mean that the damage will apply before the attack is resolved?
I have a paladin character that would be very grateful for a clarification on this issue.
Does this mean that the damage will apply before the attack is resolved?
When else would you apply the damage?
They're making the attack, it doesn't include you, conditions met.
Burn them before figuring out if they even hit.
__________________ The Passion of Lovers is for Death
It's not during the attack, which is what it would do if it interrupted. Resolve the attack, apply the damage. If it interrupted, it would say so. (It can't be used to prevent an attack from happening this way.)
It is not an interrupt, but it is also not a reaction. I always used it as a reaction (after the attack resolved), but the different avenger wording "hit or miss" let me to think that it maybe is supposed to happen at the moment the attack is declared.
Well your options are before the attack, during the attack, and after the attack. The ability is triggered by the attack, and does not interrupt it or alter the attack, so it would happen after the attack. Something marked 'hit or miss' applies after the hit or miss.
The thing is, the attack includes the damage, the hit or miss does not. So there's no way without an interrupt or alteration of the attack for it to occur before damage. And because it's not an interrupt, it can't change the results of the attack anyways.
But it's irrelevant.
Sometimes triggers cause things to happen.
The only thing triggers cause that don't occur right away are immediate reactions.
Everything else, including opportunity actions, free actions, no actions, whatever ... simply occurs at the trigger.
__________________ The Passion of Lovers is for Death
But it's irrelevant.
Sometimes triggers cause things to happen.
The only thing triggers cause that don't occur right away are immediate reactions.
Everything else, including opportunity actions, free actions, no actions, whatever ... simply occurs at the trigger.
The debate, as I understand it, is if the damage from the enemy attack is included in the trigger (the attack), or happens after it.
There are several powers in PHB2 (sorry, book not available) for which there is a result that occurs on both Hit and Miss, and that would appear to be more concisely stated as an Effect.
About the divine challenge - here is the perspective of Wizards CS:
Quote:
The target takes damage as soon as it declares an attack that doesn't include the paladin for the first time that turn, and before any attack rolls are made.
Please let me know if you need anymore help!
I will play it this way - effects triggered on enemy attack happen before the attack is rolled, effects triggered on enemy hit or miss happen after damage is rolled (if any damage is rolled).
Yes, I know many people don't like CS answers, but in this particular case I agree with their ruling.
Last edited by Blizzardb; 3rd April 2009 at 09:45 AM..
There are several powers in PHB2 (sorry, book not available) for which there is a result that occurs on both Hit and Miss, and that would appear to be more concisely stated as an Effect.
Can anyone think of a reason for this wording?
The simplest explanation is "what if the attack neither hits nor misses?"
This CAN happen. Suppose an attack is made against a PC and a power is triggered which causes the attack to fail. It neither hits nor misses, and thus a power that triggers on a "hit or a miss" is never triggered. The most likely cases would be say a warlord in your party shifts you out of attack range.
These are pretty uncommon corner cases, but they happen often enough that CS gets bombarded with questions about them, and that costs WotC money, and they would rather just make the wording precise enough so people can figure it out on their own. Gets a bit arcane, but it is an exacting set of rules.
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