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That would be a great theory if the rogue and ranger didn't also have rider effects for nearly every power in addition to their better attack bonuses and better damage.
Rogues have a fair few (largely forced movement with a couple of others - Blinding Barrage and Knockout being the main ones), I don't recall Rangers having all that many status effects.
I play a fey warlock in an online game and I was a bit disappointed that they didn't get more support in arcane power, especially after star warlocks got so many goodies in Dragion magazine. I was also disappointed that gnome warlocks didn't get any specific feats. There is a feat that gives hit bonuses to gnomes for arcane charm powers but it is for bards!
Honestly, you guys sound like people on the wow forums; a game consumed with people believing stupid crap is important.
You honestly think wotc "hates" a "class". Cmon, get real. The truth is it may not be as potent sheer DMG as the other strikers.
Doesn't mean its other assets are less valuable.
Less all you care about is youe l33t DPS RIGHT
lol.
- out
No, I don't honestly think WotC "hates" a class. I was using a metaphorical device generally accepted to mean "it has become clear given WotC's latest sourcebook that the capabilities of the warlock are in no way going to be expanded to match that of the other classes, and that further the aspects of the warlock which use to add to its particular flavor are going to be doled out to every other class so as to further reduce the warlock's distinctiveness."
Now that I understand the intelligence level of my audience, I will be sure to spell everything out more clearly and avoid rhetorical flourish. And given the gibberish at the end of your post, maybe I should also type more slowly.
__________________ "Players may blunder through dialog with shocking ineptitude, forget the name of the country they are in, or get confused about which side they are on, but once it comes time to roll for initiative they all turn into Sun Tzu." Shamus Young, DM of the Rings.
The feylock, as near as I can tell, is close to unkillable. Great defenses, almost impossible to pin down, the list goes on.
Our feylock plays by cursing people and running into melee reach, casting eyebite while flanking and provoking opportunity attacks from enemies who have been marked by our fighter. Between being invisible post-attack versus the enemy with whom he's in melee reach, teleportation allows him to retreat to safety outside of his own turn order.
It took him a while to catch on to this, but now that he's getting flanking bonuses and point blank shot bonuses on the vast majority of his attacks, and now that he's come to realize that sticking near the fighter coupled with shadow walk and teleportation makes him much, much more durable than he thought, he's really enjoying the class.
Honestly, you guys sound like people on the wow forums; a game consumed with people believing stupid crap is important.
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Originally Posted by Valesin
Now that I understand the intelligence level of my audience, I will be sure to spell everything out more clearly and avoid rhetorical flourish. And given the gibberish at the end of your post, maybe I should also type more slowly.
Folks, you are getting entirely too personal and insulting.
If anyone here wants to waste time tossing insults back and forth, you can do it on some other boards. We won't tolerate it here. It is against our rules, and if we see any more of it in this thread, we will happily give you a vacation during which you can reconsider your rhetorical style.
You can make pacts with the forces of hell, unknowable entities of madness, or...the courts of the fey? One of these things is not like the other, methinks.
I look at Curse of the Bloody Fangs and I get a very Norse impression for the powers behind a Fey Pact. The Wild Hunt, bloody-minded demigods with no interest in human morality, and savage primal creatures like the Fenrir Wolf. The first warlock character concept I wrote was granted power by some Fey noble who claimed his arm as the price, to feed his hounds. The warlock has lost his hand so far and is wracked by terrible pain as the noble's hunting dogs constantly gnaw on the stump of his arm across the planes.
The Feylock is the Diet Coke of Warlocks. It's the Warlock for people who want to hug bunnies instead of setting them on fire, people who don't want to make any real sacrifice for their power (and you get what you pay for, b/c the Feylock excels solely at teleporting).
You can make pacts with the forces of hell, unknowable entities of madness, or...the courts of the fey? One of these things is not like the other, methinks.
If the Courts of the Fey don't come off as a cross between Fëanor and Nyarlthotep covered in glitter, it's possible you're doing it wrong.
If you think WotC hates fey locks, just look at what they've done to the wizard...
An entire build for the wizard class, the war mage, focused on what was supposedly the main part of the "controller" role, dealing damage to a large number of foes at once. But now? They added the Sorcerer, an "area striker" (which goes completely, 100% against the very defintion of a "striker" in the PHB), which blows things up far better than war wizard can ever hope to. And if you miss Cantrips that much, just make a Gnome Sorcerer, with one feat you have 3 of the 4 cantrips available to wizards (albeit once per encounter, but how often do you need them anyway).
They took some of the most iconic wizard spells from past editions (Haste, Baleful Polymorph, etc) and gave them to other classes. They didn't even do so under a different name, making it clear that turning people into harmless critters is now something Druids do, not wizards, and speeding up your party member's belongs to the Bard now. Talk about a slap in the face!
They made an entire build for wizards based around summoning, but it sucks. The summoned creatures have half the wizard's hit points and cost him a healing surge if he dies. Wizards have the lowest hit points and healing surges of any class in the game, and they make these two weaknesses essential parts of a wizard build? And to add insult to injury, not a single wizard summon can use a minor or move action to attack. They all require a standard action. The Invoker class has summons that can attack as a minor action. So yeah, I summon this huge mountain thing, but it has half of my measly hit points and I have to sit there and do nothing myself to control it. Yay... And THIS is what I waited for Arcane Power for?
If the Courts of the Fey don't come off as a cross between Fëanor and Nyarlthotep covered in glitter, it's possible you're doing it wrong.
To that add in a little Dionysis, for the 'all night' parties they would invite (read as 'charm') mortals into attending, which actually lasted a lifetime. They might flay you alive or send you on your way with a pocket-full of gold, but the flaying was far more likely.
To that add in a little Dionysis, for the 'all night' parties they would invite (read as 'charm') mortals into attending, which actually lasted a lifetime. They might flay you alive or send you on your way with a pocket-full of gold, but the flaying was far more likely.
And that was the Seelie Court... not even thinking of the Unseelies... Course I also remember something of Shadow Elves... or were they basically transformed into the Shadar Kai? No idea... But Fey != Happy/fun/Sing Alongs....
And that was the Seelie Court... not even thinking of the Unseelies... Course I also remember something of Shadow Elves... or were they basically transformed into the Shadar Kai? No idea... But Fey != Happy/fun/Sing Alongs....
Yup, there's a reason why the term "chaotic" was originally used in the alignment of old AD&D books, though where the "good" part crept in is beyond me; as changeable as the weather and as much fun as a flash flood at harvest time. The Seelie Court is D&D Drow, on "E" at a rave.
How come the rogue and ranger get to improve their extra damage dice and the 'lock doesn't?
Vicious Rod, anyone? And gee, I don't have to spend a feat I can use on getting a second pact (or Sacrifice to Caiphon) to do it, either.
Granted, if I was playing a Cha-lock I'd go Dark pact and second into fey to pick up Eyebite at paragon tier, not the other way around. Darkspiral Aura when coupled with Reaper's Touch and Shadow Walk is just too wicked. I move 3 squares into melee and whack you with eldritch blast. Next round I provoke the attack of opportunity (which since I have concealment and spent feats on Hide armor and Light Shield proficiency, will have a hard time hitting me), and when you miss, you eat my entire darkspiral aura. And, hey, if you're marked by my fighter friend, he'll whack you for attacking me.
__________________ The Last Word: We could tell you, but then it would have to kill you. --Piratecat
As for why the feylock sucks even worse than the other 'locks:
first level enounters: all do multiple dice of damage and have rider effects except for the feylock one which does one die of damage. The "bonus" you get for being fey pact is that the range is 10...but all the other powers have a range 10 for free.
Granted on this one
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Level one dailies: the powers that use Cha are weaker then the ones that use con.
I actually think Decree of Khirad is the best power for the level. A close blast 3 hitting enemies only, allowing you to slide everyone you hit into position to make basic attacks against their allies. Fortune's Reversal is weak though.
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daily 9: terrible damage for the fey powers with useless riders (ooh, i can end the damage and slide the target? really??)
Restrain in mid-air isn't a useless rider against quite a few mobs and you're neglecting that the mob will take falling damage after it makes its save. If the Feylock's been bumping Int, they should be able to make the target take 3d10 points of falling damage. That's not terrible damage.
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daily 15: huh, there isn't even a new power here for the feylock. too bad
Uh, Plague of Frogs? Area burst 2, 2d8+Cha damage, movable zone of difficult terrain that continues to do 2d8+Cha damage to anyone entering or starting inside. More damage than you'll get out any of the other dailies of that level.
My first 4ed character was a warlock. I loved his concept, but the mechanics felt extremely underpowered compared to other characters such as the rogue or mage. Both seemed to outdamage me handily, and the rogue's effects were better to boot.
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Originally Posted by Candfan
Our feylock plays by cursing people and running into melee reach, casting eyebite while flanking and provoking opportunity attacks from enemies who have been marked by our fighter.
This intrigues me. You are saying that your warlock intentionally takes damage from an OA, in order to give the fighter an extra attack. The Eyebite effect (presuming it hits) would protect you from your foe's regular turn attacks, but not the OA itself so I imagine you'd be taking a fair bit of damage...
On a related issue, one of my biggest disappointments with the class was that while the overview in the PH suggests "you can shift easily from ranged attacks to melee attacks" practically all of a warlock's powers provoke in melee range.
__________________ signed Jere, Lord of Pendragon
"Raven dark but beautiful, in a malevolent sort of way;
With eyes that speak of wonders on the other side of Day.
She dances in the shadows where others fear to tread;
But though her touch may kill you, it's her love that you should dread."
My first 4ed character was a warlock. I loved his concept, but the mechanics felt extremely underpowered compared to other characters such as the rogue or mage. Both seemed to outdamage me handily, and the rogue's effects were better to boot.This intrigues me. You are saying that your warlock intentionally takes damage from an OA, in order to give the fighter an extra attack. The Eyebite effect (presuming it hits) would protect you from your foe's regular turn attacks, but not the OA itself so I imagine you'd be taking a fair bit of damage...
You can generate a pretty good effective AC with a Warlock. When you move 3 or more squares, you're considered concealed. Use Ethereal Stride and you gain an effective 4 points of AC (power bonus to all defences of +2 from the power and a move of 3 squares, which gives you concealment). At level 9 I'm in the high 20s, when I really need to be.
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On a related issue, one of my biggest disappointments with the class was that while the overview in the PH suggests "you can shift easily from ranged attacks to melee attacks" practically all of a warlock's powers provoke in melee range.
Well you can, but it takes some work. Take one of the melee basic attack stat swap feats (probably Melee Training - CHA) and make sure that you curse your enemy before hitting him. Suddenly your dagger is doing d4+d6+CHA Bonus. An Elardin Warlock could be swinging a longsword rather than a dagger, for the same hit bonuses.
This intrigues me. You are saying that your warlock intentionally takes damage from an OA, in order to give the fighter an extra attack. The Eyebite effect (presuming it hits) would protect you from your foe's regular turn attacks, but not the OA itself so I imagine you'd be taking a fair bit of damage...
That's the idea.
The damage isn't as high as you'd think. He's using combat mobility coupled with shadow walk, which means that his base armor class of 14 is functionally a base armor class of 18. And then he's provoking the enemy who has been marked by the fighter, which applies an additional -2 to that enemy's attack rolls.
Its a lot like having an AC of 20, and of course it also gives him +3 to attack (+1 prime shot, +2 flank).
Plus, its best if some of the damage the group takes is a bit spread out. In a way, if your character have your initial 7 healing surges while your allies are demanding a stop to the action because they're flat out, then you haven't done your part.
Meanwhile there's a power that's come out for warlocks that lets them replace eldritch blast with eldritch strike, a melee attack. I suspect he might take advantage of that one for stylistic reasons, even though it isn't strictly better. After all, he's got Eyebite, Eldritch Blast seems a little redundant.
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