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Normally when using forced movement to move an enemy into a damaging square (like a pit), then get a save, success they are knocked prone.
Now forced movement is defined as a push, pull, or slide...no where does it mention teleportation. So if I teleport an enemy over a pit square, do they get any kind of save or do they just suffer the pain?
The few times I've seen this question come up, the limited consensus was that being able to drop a NPC into a pit via teleport was a little overpowered, despite the fact that it seems doable by the RAW.
The question seemed to be whether or not "over a pit" or "up in the air" is a legal destination for a teleport.
This is the same question as asking if you can teleport them into a hill, and the same answer. No, you pick the square, not the height. They end up at the bottom of the pit (without the whole falling buisness) assuming it's a legal square.
As far as I know, 4E doesn't have a version of 3E's "Pin To The Sky" spell yet.
This is the same question as asking if you can teleport them into a hill, and the same answer. No, you pick the square, not the height. They end up at the bottom of the pit (without the whole falling buisness) assuming it's a legal square.
As far as I know, 4E doesn't have a version of 3E's "Pin To The Sky" spell yet.
It's not quite the same, though.
In 4e, you can't teleport a target into a hill because you have no line of sight to the inside of the hill. You do, however, have line of sight to spaces above the ground.
In 4e, you can't teleport a target into a hill because you have no line of sight to the inside of the hill. You do, however, have line of sight to spaces above the ground.
-O
I wasn't totally clear. You have line of sight on top of the hill. If the idea of a hill is causing problems, assume a square where the floor is 1 foot higher than the surrounding squares. Is that square valid? Yes. Do they end up embedded inside it? No. They end up on the ground in that square.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stalker0
Even moreso, you can only teleport to a square that you could move to without squeezing, which the inside of the hill doesn't count
You can move to the bottom of the pit without squeezing, then it's a valid square.
4e tends to ignore the 3rd dimension, and this is another case of that. When you choose a square for something, the system assumes you'll be picking a square on a battlemat, not a location in the world that mat represents. For that reason, and for the sheer brokenness of being able to teleport enemies into a fall, our group says no.
It's not just "can I teleport them over a pit." If the answer to that is "yes," then the answer to "can I teleport them straight up" is also yes. That means that you can put them at a vertical distance from you equal to the range of the teleport. If you are elevated, and/or there is lower terrain nearby, it can be an insane fall.
Levitating wizard: +20'
Low terrain: A 60' dropoff is small for 20th level
Maelstrom of Chaos: port them anywhere in the burst (which is 50' up)
Your attack just did its base damage, plus an extra 13d10 from the fall. If you're flying instead of levitating, make it 26d10 instead.
It's not just "can I teleport them over a pit." If the answer to that is "yes," then the answer to "can I teleport them straight up" is also yes.
Here's the counterpoint to that. Is it vertical distance from the ground or in relation to you?
For example, in the pit example, I teleport a person who in on solid ground and at the same elevation as me. I move him to the square that is the mouth of the pit. He is now higher above actual ground, but he at the exact same elevation to me as he was just a minute ago. I haven't moved him up or down...the fall will do that, not the teleport.
Here's another example. Lets say I am flying 100 feet above the ground, and I wish to teleport 10 squares east. If there is a hill down there, so that the ground is now only 95 squares away and not 100...does that mean I can't teleport? Or if I can only teleport creatures to ground squares, do flying creatures lose the ability to teleport?
Here's another example. Lets say I am flying 100 feet above the ground, and I wish to teleport 10 squares east. If there is a hill down there, so that the ground is now only 95 squares away and not 100...does that mean I can't teleport? Or if I can only teleport creatures to ground squares, do flying creatures lose the ability to teleport?
A square is a 2 dimensional object. You actually mean cubes, but 4E doesn't deal with cubes.
If you teleport 10 squares east you end up on the ground 10 squares east. Alternately the DM might not allow you to teleport since you can't actually walk from your current location to any other square since you're in mid air, so there aren't any valid squares.
This is one of the big rule oversights with 4th edition (along with weapons as implements). The reason you won't find an answer is that there really isn't an answer. Being allowed to do things like teleport enemies straight up would add way too much damage to effects, but making it so PCs couldn't teleport themselves onto a five foot ledge makes it a lot less useful and there's effects that explicitly allow for vertical PC teleportation.
So best game results, say that you can only teleport enemies horizontally but PCs can teleport vertically.
Mmm for me this is a common sense one. You have to teleport to a 'legal square'* i.e. onto a surface within range. You can't teleport into a pit 'cos the legal sqaure is at the bottom and out of line of sight (unless you are at the edge, then fill your boots). Don't really care what the rules are, it is all part of the '4E is in many ways 2 dimensional' problem... vertical square or cubes with 6' tall people??? \
*EDIT: though I'd be happy for them to teleport a flying creature to anywhere within range, not just a surface.
Anyway like the sorcerer flying utility on the other thread I will rule it to make sense.. no insta-kill teleports (bottomless pit) and no perma-flying IMC.
Essentially, this problem existed in 3e too. There, teleports and summons were generally limited such that they only worked onto squares of solid surface capable of supporting the target's weight. This is pretty arbitrary; but it's exactly the same situation as in 4e, and the same (arbitrary) solution works just as well.
I'm guessing that was the intent as well - 4e (as many have said) has a focus on the battlemat, and I'm sure the intent was not to permit people to teleport each other (or even themselves) off into space.
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I'm of the opinion that using a tactic against the PCs that would greatly piss them off, despite how it is a tactic THEY would like to use, then it is probably unfair to all parties involved. During the middle of a game, the "teleport over a pit to fall and suffer" is an argument i don't even want to start.
I'm in the "there's really no official answer" camp.
That said; I would allow it, but only after a failed save: if the game allows you to push people off cliffs with "only" a save to, well, save them, then it isn't more (or less) broken to allow "hostile teleportation" to do the same.
Remember that as the DM, you can negate this tactic by simply staging your combats where there are no cliffs and no pits. Or, more interestingly, you can allow your PCs to specialize in "the cliff strategy" and simply set more monsters at them...!
Teleportation is Movement and is governed by all the rules within the Movement section of the PHB (p.282 to p.286).
You have to decide if teleporting an enemy is considered forced movement. The list of forced movement doesnt include nor preclude teleportation as forced movement.
In general most GM's and Players I know consider it Forced Movement and therefore has to follow the Forced Movement rules.
So for the question of the OP. If the above is true then you could teleport the enemy to the closest edge of the pit, since PHB p.286 under Forced Movement - Clear Path rule states that forced movement can not move an enemy into a square that it could not walk. The enemy would then make its save to catch the lip etc.
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