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Old 28th April 2009, 02:17 AM   #1 (permalink)
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All-arcane party

Today I was toying with the idea of an all-arcane party, in part inspired by the Arcane Legions thread over in General. The PCs would either be part of a standing army that regularly fields arcane soldiers, or are the last remnants of one such force. The party would be:

Leader - Bard
Defender - Swordmage
Controller - Wizard
Striker - Sorcerer

Anyone tried anything of the sort?
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Old 28th April 2009, 02:21 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I'm sure it'd work. You might want to throw in a Warlock as your 5th man... with Arcane Power, they seem quite playable.

Cheers, -- N
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Old 28th April 2009, 02:30 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I'm sure it'd work. You might want to throw in a Warlock as your 5th man... with Arcane Power, they seem quite playable.

Cheers, -- N
Yeah, probably a Starlock that serves as the "navigator". After all, who would want to serve alongside some dude who made a pact with the devil?
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Old 28th April 2009, 02:37 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I play with a group over Maptools, and we almost made an all-arcane party by ourselves. It was:

Human Shielding Swormdage (me)
Human Artificer
Tiefling Starlock
Human(?) Beastmaster Ranger
Dragonborn Fighter

The Beastmaster Ranger dropped out after a few sessions, and was quickly replaced with a Human Wizard. Then the Artificer dropped out, and was replaced with a Gnome Bard.

Now all we have to do is get rid of that darn Dragonborn, and we'll be an all-arcane party!
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Old 28th April 2009, 02:39 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Yeah, probably a Starlock that serves as the "navigator". After all, who would want to serve alongside some dude who made a pact with the devil?
Err, maybe the guy with the Book Imp familiar?

Anyway, as I see it your alternatives are Vestige Pact (some Leader-ish effects), Hexhammer (Dwarf Infernal Warlock / Ftr -> Iron Vanguard), or taking another Wizard with a complementary power selection.

The Hexhammer would do a bit to make up for the group's thin front-line.

However, a properly built Staff Wizard could also hold his own on the front ranks, as mine tends to do (my Wizard has used the Charge action in 3 of his last 3 encounters). It all comes down to specifics.

I'm assuming that as a military unit, they're all expected to be capable at melee as well as ranged combat?

Cheers, -- N
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Old 28th April 2009, 02:39 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Yeah, probably a Starlock that serves as the "navigator". After all, who would want to serve alongside some dude who made a pact with the devil?
And channeling Cthulhu makes him a more trustworthy ally?
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Old 28th April 2009, 03:44 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Thinking...

Swordmage: You need to be up front and sucking up blows. Try defending or ensnaring to lay pin down foes.

Bard: As much as cunning seems tempting here, go valorous so that you have another front-liner (chain + longsword + shield prof)

Sorcerer: Either build is nice, but I like dragon-blood for OA support from Strength.

Wizard: Control, you must learn control! Try going either frost orb (slow + sucky saves) or summoning (more friends)

Warlock: Fifth man, I say go feylock and act as a trapfinder. Bonus points if a gnome.
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Old 28th April 2009, 06:43 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Sorcerer: Either build is nice, but I like dragon-blood for OA support from Strength.
Either of the Dex based Sorcerer options could easily take the at-will power that counts as a basic attack, then take Sorcerous Blade channelling to make it a melee basic attack, at which point their OAs and charges would be sorted out without needing any Strength. Or Melee Training, of course.


Dragon sorcerer might still be preferred, as they are probably the most melee capable of sorcerers (bonus AC when bloodied, lots of close bursts and blasts, etc.) But there are options.
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Old 28th April 2009, 07:17 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I'd add a 2nd sorcerer as the 5th... more strikers, less grind.
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Old 28th April 2009, 03:04 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I play with a group over Maptools, and we almost made an all-arcane party by ourselves.
Same thing almost is happening to our forming party. Maybe arcane is just the more popular power source?
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Old 28th April 2009, 03:17 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Same thing almost is happening to our forming party. Maybe arcane is just the more popular power source?
Or the first to completely fill the grid?

I could see a religious team made up of Avenger, Invoker, Paladin and Cleric, or a tree-hugging team of Barbarian, Druid, Warden and Shaman. But the former is limited in the types of missions it'd take, while the latter look almost the same (visually).
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Old 28th April 2009, 03:30 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I've done all Martial parties before, but we didn't / don't have a controller option to fill in that final 'grid' spot
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Old 28th April 2009, 03:33 PM   #13 (permalink)
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However, a properly built Staff Wizard could also hold his own on the front ranks, as mine tends to do (my Wizard has used the Charge action in 3 of his last 3 encounters). It all comes down to specifics.
I find your ideas intriguing and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
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Old 28th April 2009, 04:22 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I find your ideas intriguing and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Yeah, what Statues-Making-Out said! How would you build a front-rank Staff Wizard?
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Old 28th April 2009, 08:10 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I used to run a Magical University campaign (similar to Hogwarts, but deadlier), and was considering an all-arcane party. This was before Bard, when Artificer was the leader-archetype.

Yes, I think it would work fine.
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Old 28th April 2009, 08:17 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Yeah, what Statues-Making-Out said! How would you build a front-rank Staff Wizard?
Here's how I would do it personally:

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast DDI Character Builder ======
TURTLE WIZARD, level 1
Human, Wizard
Arcane Implement Mastery: Staff of Defense

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 14, Dex 13, Int 18, Wis 13, Cha 12.

Starting Ability Scores
Str 8, Con 14, Dex 13, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 12.


AC: 18 Fort: 13 Reflex: 15 Will: 14
HP: 24 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 6

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature, Arcana, Religion, Diplomacy, History.

FEATS
1: Ritual Caster
1: Armor Proficiency (Leather)
1: Staff Fighting

POWERS
1, At-Will: Thunderwave
1, At-Will: Magic Missile
1, Encounter: Icy Terrain
1, Daily: Flaming Sphere
Spellbook: Sleep
1, At-Will: Scorching Burst

ITEMS
Spellbook, Adventurer's Kit, Quarterstaff, Simbul's Conversion, Comprehend Languages, Tenser's Floating Disk, Leather Armor
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast DDI Character Builder ======

This character can take it, but can't dish it in a fight. At Level 2 take Melee Training to even that up. If you're playing Forgotten Realms, come from Thay for another 4hp too.

This is one of my favourite wizard builds. It could probably be min-maxed further if you wanted too, but I think this build is playable without guilt.

Cheers
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Old 29th April 2009, 12:59 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Yeah, what Statues-Making-Out said! How would you build a front-rank Staff Wizard?
First off, be Human. The +1 to FRW and extra Feat are both vital, and you'll like having Thunderwave plus two other options. You'll want to qualify for Hide armor around 4th level.


Specifically in my case, through Heroic:

Str: 13
Con: 13 (+1 at 4th level)
Dex: 13
Int: 18 (16 +2 racial) (+1 at 4th level, +1 at 8th level)
Wis: 13 (+1 at 8th level)
Cha: 9

1/ Feats: Toughness, Leather Armor
- At-Will: Magic Missile, Thunderwave, Illusory Ambush (ArcP)
- Encounter: Staffstrike Corrosion (ArcP)
- Daily: Flaming Sphere
2/ Feat: Action Surge or Hide Armor
- Utility: Shield
3/ Encounter: Color Spray
4/ Feat: (whichever you didn't take at 2)
5/ Daily: Bigby's Icy Claw (meh)
6/ Feat: Melee Training (PHB2)
- Utility: Wizard's Escape (ArcP)
7/ Encounter: Concussive Echo (ArcP)
8/ Feat: Barbarian Rage (train Perception) (PHB2)
9/ Daily: Mord's Sword
10/ Feat: Longsword Proficiency
- Utility: Mass Resist (ArcP)

By 6th level, you've got THREE ways per encounter to say "no" to an attack: Defensive Staff (at +2 Con, it's useful to me almost every combat), Shield (+4, but only Reflex and AC -- but you're on the front lines, so lots of stuff will be attacking AC), and finally Wizard's Escape, which is the first Wizard spell to allow you to cancel an attacker's crit.

With your Int bonus, Hide armor, and the +1 from your staff, you may have the highest AC in the party. You will certainly be hard for enemies to hit, particularly if there's a Defender around to discourage them from focusing fire on you.

The Barbarian multi-classing is partly for teh funny, but mostly because +2 damage for the whole encounter is great when you are making lots of attacks.

The Defensive Staff (AdV) is very worthwhile for this character.

- - -

I'd recommend a mix of up-close and ranged attacks, so you can punish foes for clumping up around you, or for hanging back and staying spread out.

When he hits Paragon, he's going to retrain Magic Missile -> Scorching Burst, and take Arcane Admixture (Thunder) so his Scorching Burst is a Fire and Thunder attack. Then he's going to take Rolling Thunder and Enlarge Spell. Burst 3 at-will? Yes please.

- - -

What's up with his lame "13 everywhere" stat distribution? Well, originally he'd utterly neglected Dexterity and only mildly neglected Charisma, but then Arcane Power came out and apparently you need a 13 Dex for Improved Staff of Defense (which he wants), AND you need 15 Dex for Wizard Implement Mastery (which he really wants). So yeah. I went back and re-munched him specifically for his Epic tier feat selection.

On the upside, it means he might take Shield Specialization instead of Hide Specialization, which buys him another +1 Reflex instead of a +1 bonus to a bunch of skills he holds in low regard. Also, he'll qualify for Arcane Reach at Epic, which his allies may appreciate... he's not been shy about including them in his area effects, because hey, Fighters are tough.

My dude frequently makes it through a combat without ever seeing Bloodied, and he's been the last man standing in a very tough fight or two.

Cheers, -- N
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Old 29th April 2009, 02:41 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Very neat!
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Old 29th April 2009, 03:32 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Yeah, what Statues-Making-Out said! How would you build a front-rank Staff Wizard?
My own Character, also a 'Front-line Wizard'.

I might have made a mistake retraining Thoughness into Implement Expertise: Staff. I'm definitely retraining Wall of Fog into Wizard's Escape ASAP

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Bellario Falcrist, level 9
Doppelganger, Wizard
Build: War Wizard
Arcane Implement Mastery: Staff of Defense
Background: Occupation - Scholar

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 16, Dex 13, Int 20, Wis 14, Cha 12.

Starting Ability Scores
Str 8, Con 15, Dex 13, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 10.


AC: 25 Fort: 19 Reflex: 21 Will: 21
HP: 58 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 14

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana, Religion, Insight, History.

FEATS
1: Ritual Caster
1: Armor Proficiency (Leather)
2: Skill Focus (Arcana)
4: Improved Initiative
6: Toughness (retrained to Implement Expertise (staff) at Level 9)
8: Staff Fighting

POWERS
1, At-Will: Illusory Ambush
1, At-Will: Thunderwave
1, Encounter: Grasping Shadows
1, Daily: Sleep
Spellbook: Flaming Sphere
2, Utility: Shield
Spellbook: Expeditious Retreat
3, Encounter: Color Spray
5, Daily: Stinking Cloud
Spellbook: Bigby's Icy Grasp
6, Utility: Dimension Door
Spellbook: Wall of Fog
7, Encounter: Lightning Bolt
9, Daily: Wall of Fire
Spellbook: Summon Arrowhawk

ITEMS
Spellbook, Magic Leather Armor +2, Staff of the War Mage +2, Cloak of Survival +2, Helm of Battle (heroic tier)

RITUALS
Tenser's Floating Disk, Comprehend Language, Secret Page, Linked Portal, Phantom Steed, Leomund's Secret Chest, Magic Circle, Knock, Arcane Lock
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
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Old 29th April 2009, 12:19 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Oh thank goodness, I thought no one was going to mention staff fighting.

That +1 to defense is awful nice.
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