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Armor of Faith grants +3 AC while not in heavy armour
Swordmage Warding grants +3 AC while not in heavy armour and with a free hand, +1 AC with both hands occupied, which turns off should you fall unconscious.
For a feat, you can enhance Armor of Faith by +1 per tier.
For a feat (if you have Dex 13), you can enhance Swordmage Warding by +1, but only while in cloth or leather (not hide).
AC is a more easily available resource for an avenger (a striker) than a swordmage (a defender). Am I missing something that makes this desirable?
Different classes are different. Looking at a single class feature from each class in a vacuum while ignoring the entirety of the rest of the class is not a proper analysis.
Look through the power list for Avengers and find utility powers that negate hits done. Now look at the power lists for Rangers and Rogues and Sorcerers.
Look through the power list for Avengers and find utility powers that negate hits done. Now look at the power lists for Rangers and Rogues and Sorcerers.
The Avenger has more Ac because he needs more Ac.
I admit I can't think of any such avenger utility powers, but Bond of Retribution (attack avenger, deal damage to you ally), Avenging Echo (attack avenger, take damage), Executioner's Cloak (avenger becomes invisible) come to mind as powers that give the avenger survivability, in addition to their defender-like hp.
I'm not convinced the avenger needs that much more AC, not just more than the other classes with the same role, but also more than defenders.
Swordmage also uses Intelligence as a primary ability, while the Avenger only has Dexterity and Intelligence as secondary - thus, the Swordmage is more likely to have a higher AC boosting stat, making up some of the difference as well.
So anybody think it would be a heinous crime if I, gimp armor of faith a bit, ie make it only work with cloth armor, for me that fits the fluff far better, ie the gods protect you if you rely on them and wear only cloth but if you went out of your way to learn the leather etc feats you are definitely not trusting in your faith to protect you.
I have a type in my game world that are a touch of divine mixed in with swordmage, they are called sword dancers since that is where I really want to use this I guess it is out of context with the Avenger. The at wills of the sword dancers are less magical than the sword mages but I figure I can do some of that with fluff. Sworddancers dont conjure there defense with there secondary hand... it is manifestation of faith and bravery (should I make it charisma based)..
Swordmage also uses Intelligence as a primary ability, while the Avenger only has Dexterity and Intelligence as secondary - thus, the Swordmage is more likely to have a higher AC boosting stat, making up some of the difference as well.
This is a big part of it.
Avengers can't cancel attacks, but they actually have a few ability's that give them damage reduction and temporary HP (like Channel Endurance and Blessing of Vengeance) Which can be very useful for Retribution builds.
Swordmage's do have a lot more of these kinds of damage reduction and attack canceling abilities, as well as defense enhancing stances. Plus they get the whole more HP and more healing surges thing. Avengers having an AC 1 or 2 points higher isn't that big of a deal.
There's no balance issue, though I'm a bit confused about why they did it this way as well.
So anybody think it would be a heinous crime if I, gimp armor of faith a bit, ie make it only work with cloth armor, for me that fits the fluff far better, ie the gods protect you if you rely on them and wear only cloth but if you went out of your way to learn the leather etc feats you are definitely not trusting in your faith to protect you.
I can't see any reason why you would, without granting some other bonus.. Avenger needs more survivability than other strikers because they do a controllery-defendery job of either chasing down or sequestering enemies. They even have a power which explicitly makes it so the enemy can ONLY attack the avenger, period.
Swordmage's do have a lot more of these kinds of damage reduction and attack canceling abilities, as well as defense enhancing stances. Plus they get the whole more HP and more healing surges thing.
Unless you count the hp and surges from high Con for a shielding swordmage, swordmages have 1 hp more and 1 healing surge more; in addition to their defender-like AC, avengers get defender-like hp.
So anybody think it would be a heinous crime if I, gimp armor of faith a bit, ie make it only work with cloth armor, for me that fits the fluff far better, ie the gods protect you if you rely on them and wear only cloth but if you went out of your way to learn the leather etc feats you are definitely not trusting in your faith to protect you.
Seems reasonable. +3 AC (eventually) is a lot for a feat and it should come with some drawback. Otherwise, the Avenger can eventually get AC that's too high by taking Armor of Faith and Armor Proficiency feats. With this change, high level Avengers will tend to wear Cloth, unlike the other cloth-starting classes, who all have incentives to switch to Leather Armor because +2 AC is a major benefit for a single feat.
Edit- I meant the Improved Armor of faith feat, not the Armor of Faith ability. Sorry if that was unclear
Armor of Faith grants +3 AC while not in heavy armour
Swordmage Warding grants +3 AC while not in heavy armour and with a free hand, +1 AC with both hands occupied, which turns off should you fall unconscious.
For a feat, you can enhance Armor of Faith by +1 per tier.
For a feat (if you have Dex 13), you can enhance Swordmage Warding by +1, but only while in cloth or leather (not hide).
AC is a more easily available resource for an avenger (a striker) than a swordmage (a defender). Am I missing something that makes this desirable?
Yes, a couple very basic points:
1. The Swordmage's primary stat is INT, an AC-boositng stat in light armor. One of the Avenger builds uses it as a secondary, the other uses Dex.
2. The Swordmage starts with the light armor proficiency, the Avenger does not.
3. The Avenger is often more accurate, but doesn't do the "big damage in a single strike" other strikers do. It's almost a secondary defender in it's abilities because it can keep a BBEG somewhat isolated and away from the rest of the party.
Seems reasonable. +3 AC (eventually) is a lot for a feat and it should come with some drawback. Otherwise, the Avenger can eventually get AC that's too high by taking Armor of Faith and Armor Proficiency feats. With this change, high level Avengers will tend to wear Cloth, unlike the other cloth-starting classes, who all have incentives to switch to Leather Armor because +2 AC is a major benefit for a single feat.
Remember, the swordmage can buy Hide proficiency too, as they're likely to have the Str and Con required, which the avenger is less likely to have. So, for the cost of one feat, the swordmage has a +1 or +2 AC bonus over the avenger (they're likely to have higher Int than the avenger has Int or Dex).
Plus, again, as has been previously stated, the avenger is out running around dragging one enemy off by itself and beating it up (slowly, because it doesn't do big huge damage spikes). It's practically a secondary defender.
Brad
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I think it's an error to take a single element of a class and compare it against a single element of another class, regardless of role.
Swordmages have more stuff than just their Warding. Avengers have more stuff than just their Armor of Faith. Yes, Armor of Faith is better - but the question isn't whether or not a single class feature in one class is better than it is in another class. The question is, taken as a whole, does this feature help this class fulfill its roll? And is this class fairly balanced with other classes, taken as a whole?
I can't see any reason why you would, without granting some other bonus..
Not sure that I wouldn't give other bonus's from a pure AC point of view the class it is being adjusted for would probably also have INT/DEX as its primary
right there is 2 points better, without a feat to purchase it...
And something nice to spend those feats on if they want to be defendery?
they would then have 2 more feats they could spend on being tougher and have more healing surges! I just made it likely they wouldnt use armor to do it.
or they could spend those two feats on being more strikery boosting there damage in some fashion.
Remember, the swordmage can buy Hide proficiency too, as they're likely to have the Str and Con required, which the avenger is less likely to have. So, for the cost of one feat, the swordmage has a +1 or +2 AC bonus over the avenger (they're likely to have higher Int than the avenger has Int or Dex).
Plus, again, as has been previously stated, the avenger is out running around dragging one enemy off by itself and beating it up (slowly, because it doesn't do big huge damage spikes). It's practically a secondary defender.
Brad
Sorry, I meant the Improved Armor of Faith feat that adds up to +3 AC at epic tier, not Armor of Faith itself. I agree Armor of Faith shouldn't be limited to Cloth Armor. I misread the original post.
Unless you count the hp and surges from high Con for a shielding swordmage, swordmages have 1 hp more and 1 healing surge more; in addition to their defender-like AC, avengers get defender-like hp.
Good point, I forgot that Avengers didn't get the rogue hp progression.
While noting the starting hp from class, SM's will almost always have a higher Con than Avengers. So while the hp difference won't be great I'd expect at least 2-3 more surges on average to help them out. That's a big deal as a defender. Heck even just the 1 surge they normally get is a big deal.
Once again, abilities are a big factor in their difference. Just look at the "fighter is the best pure defender debate" then look through a paladins utility power list. Try to find better defending powers anywhere. Class features aren't everything.
Also the SM feat gives a +1/+2 bonus to all defenses. Not just AC. I'd trade 1 AC for +2 to my NAD's just about any time.
If you do want to change the avenger armor of faith feat, maybe limiting it to cloth armor would have the desired effect? All of a sudden none of them are running around in leather, at least by epic.
Last edited by FrozenChrono; 6th May 2009 at 01:43 AM..
The irony of this entire thread is that Swordmages also have a feat at Paragon that boosts their Warding, so they too can get +3 at epic on top of their +3. Then they can use a shield, which opens Shield Specialization for +4, and ends up with +3 to Reflex. An Avenger can't do this.
The irony of this entire thread is that Swordmages also have a feat at Paragon that boosts their Warding, so they too can get +3 at epic on top of their +3. Then they can use a shield, which opens Shield Specialization for +4, and ends up with +3 to Reflex. An Avenger can't do this.
It would cost 3 feats to pick up Light Shield Proficiency, Heavy Shield Proficiency, and Shield Specialization. That gives +1 AC and +3 Reflex. With the number of powerful feats currently available, that's not a great return on investment unless you've taken many other defense-boosting feats already and are just trying to max defenses.
I can't comment on the swordmage feat you're referring to, since I don't know the details.
It gives +1 at paragon, +2 at Epic, (from Arcane Power). My bad on there being a heroic one, but still, Int being primary for SMs and secondary for Avengers, means that it's more likely to be higher, which results in similiar AC.
As for the shield thing, that's more me musing about a spiked-shield Swordmage build I have kicking around in my brain, sort of a Captain America build.
It gives +1 at paragon, +2 at Epic, (from Arcane Power)
I'm looking at Arcane Power right now, and I'm not seeing it. I see a Paragon feat that's already been mentioned that gives +1 feat bonus to all defenses at Paragon, but that's it.
I'm looking at Arcane Power right now, and I'm not seeing it. I see a Paragon feat that's already been mentioned that gives +1 feat bonus to all defenses at Paragon, but that's it.
The Greater Swordmage Warding feat grants you a +1 bonus, which increases to +2 at 21st level. So it is not a separate feat, but one that scales.
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