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I really really want to hear WotCs explanation why this wasn't included in errata, instead of us to go out having to buy PHB14 to get these feats!!
WotC explain? When was the last time WotC explained anything? They had a good dialog with their customers before 4E came out and then after that, the only thing I've seen is comments about new products.
Does anyone have a link to some type of forum or something where WotC explains anything (other than the FAQ which is pretty old and limited)?
__________________ The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action.
WotC explain? When was the last time WotC explained anything? They had a good dialog with their customers before 4E came out and then after that, the only thing I've seen is comments about new products.
Does anyone have a link to some type of forum or something where WotC explains anything (other than the FAQ which is pretty old and limited)?
Try Dragon and Dungeon magazines. You'll find plenty of explanatory articles, podcasts, and interviews.
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA PCs now: Genasi Warlord 5 Human BRV Fighter 5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarinsDad
WotC explain? When was the last time WotC explained anything? They had a good dialog with their customers before 4E came out and then after that, the only thing I've seen is comments about new products.
Does anyone have a link to some type of forum or something where WotC explains anything (other than the FAQ which is pretty old and limited)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by James McMurray
Try Dragon and Dungeon magazines. You'll find plenty of explanatory articles, podcasts, and interviews.
Uh-huh.
Which article explains Expertise (or a related subject)?
__________________ - Nail
Last edited by Nail: Today....just a few minutes ago
Which article explains Expertise (or a related subject)?
... even for very wide definitions of related: epic defense feats, items which boost F/R/W from Adventurer's Vault, why sorcerers get +Dex to all damage while warlocks get +1d6 1/round, two-bladed swords vs. rapiers, battle ragers, invoker At-Wills vs. wizard At-Wills. All of these have been criticized as either math patches in the guise of options, or gross power creep, or both.
There is a running series on skill challenges, much of which is predicated on the assumption (realization?) that skill challenges as written, even after errata, don't work. So the criticism of stealth errata can apply there too.
Which would you choose first, the one in PHB1 or the one in PHB2?
Expertise, of course!
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Assuming your answer is PHB2, doesn't this reversal strike you as odd?
Odd? Yeah, I thought the feats were too good to be true at first, what with the rather barren selection of to-hit bonuses in the PHB1, but I'm just not troubled by them now. Call me laid-back, I guess? Or maybe a munchkin?
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA PCs now: Genasi Warlord 5 Human BRV Fighter 5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasin
..There is a running series on skill challenges, much of which is predicated on the assumption (realization?) that skill challenges as written, even after errata, don't work. So the criticism of stealth errata can apply there too.
That bugs me more than the expertise line of feats; you'd think that at least post-errata, skill challenges would work.
So...what do the dragon magazine articles say about running skill challenges? I'd love to hear what advice they give, and whether it differs substaintially from the way I've been running them (house ruled).
__________________ - Nail
Last edited by Nail: Today....just a few minutes ago
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA PCs now: Genasi Warlord 5 Human BRV Fighter 5
Posts: 8,000
Okey-dokey. I agree they have explained some things, and that I've enjoyed reading their explanations. (I *really* enjoy reading thier explanations that differ widely from the apparent facts, but that's another matter.)
Now I want them to explain "X" Expertise feats.
__________________ - Nail
Last edited by Nail: Today....just a few minutes ago
So...what do the dragon magazine articles say about running skill challenges? I'd love to hear what advice they give, and whether it differs substaintially from the way I've been running them (house ruled).
I'm not a subscriber, so I've haven't read the articles in detail, but there were skills grouped by role and ability score (to make it easier to pick an even spread rather than have the rogue rolling Bluff, Diplomacy and Streetwise while everyone else waits for him to finish), advice about aiding (since, as the article admits, aiding completely wrecks the whole idea), stuff like that. Mostly (very insightful) advice on how to run the game when non-combat challenges are concerned, rather than the new subsystem that seemed to be promised before the books came out.
Okey-dokey. I agree they have explained some things, and that I've enjoyed reading their explanations. (I *really* enjoy reading thier explanations that differ widely from the apparent facts, but that's another matter.)
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA PCs now: Genasi Warlord 5 Human BRV Fighter 5
Posts: 8,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasin
I'm not a subscriber, so I've haven't read the articles in detail, but there were skills grouped by role and ability score (to make it easier to pick an even spread rather than have the rogue rolling Bluff, Diplomacy and Streetwise while everyone else waits for him to finish), advice about aiding (since, as the article admits, aiding completely wrecks the whole idea), stuff like that. Mostly (very insightful) advice on how to run the game when non-combat challenges are concerned, rather than the new subsystem that seemed to be promised before the books came out.
I should see if I can't find those articles. They are very recent?
__________________ - Nail
Last edited by Nail: Today....just a few minutes ago
WotC explain? When was the last time WotC explained anything?
the same moment the playtest that revaled that monks where psionic they put up a design and development in order to explain what happened to ki...that was this week.
does that count?
Mike merls also said they were writeing an articule on expertise and attack upping feats for later this year...so just wait
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remathilis
Planescape
It should be given special award to Die Vecna, Die: a module that manages to trash no less than THREE different settings (Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Planescape) in the course of one module.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remathilis
Those of you who fretted that monsters have too many hp and fights take too long: meet the barbarian. The ULTIMATE "Lets speed this combat up, I need to whiz" class!
the same moment the playtest that revaled that monks where psionic they put up a design and development in order to explain what happened to ki...that was this week.
does that count?
No. For people like myself, rules are more important than fluff. I can build my own fluff. I expect the rules to be playtested and with few weaknesses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers
Mike merls also said they were writeing an articule on expertise and attack upping feats for later this year...so just wait
He said that a week or two after PHB II came out. That was about 6 weeks ago.
On something this controversial, I do not consider it good customer service to wait months for a reply.
Maybe you feel differently.
__________________ The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action.
No. For people like myself, rules are more important than fluff. I can build my own fluff. I expect the rules to be playtested and with few weaknesses.
yea...I should guessed it didn't count, but had they said nothing I am sure it would have been evadance of lack of communcation...beutiful thing about already makeing up your mind is anything that dissagrees doesn't count...
Quote:
He said that a week or two after PHB II came out. That was about 6 weeks ago.
On something this controversial, I do not consider it good customer service to wait months for a reply.
Maybe you feel differently.
I do...you see he said it to me (my post asked for it) about a week before this months calander was due up...so I NEVER expected it before next month. I also realize that there are reasons to delay it...like to answer more quastions they know are comeing (Like they had to know about the monk feat back then) like maybe things in divine and primal power that work like the ones in arcane power (race + type attack prereq +1/2 at 15/3 at 25th) and want to wait to say "see here are multi options for you and here is why"
as I have said in another post as we see more and more we mayb realize it is just a new type of feat...and yes maybe everyone will someday have one of them...but the choice makes you diffrent
(Example: My orb wizard always uses an ord I have expertise in it....Jim's wiazard has a couple of tombs, an orb, and a whole bunch of wands he switchs between but they are all fire based, so he has the dragonborn arcane feat...Lisa her gnome has a orb and a staff but mostly illusions, she took the illusion gonem feat...Mike's swordmage took the new feat form the monk playtest becuse he has half implment half weapon attacks, but ...Jack's swordmage multi classed into wizard and so has abunch of implments, so he didn't take any)
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remathilis
Planescape
It should be given special award to Die Vecna, Die: a module that manages to trash no less than THREE different settings (Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Planescape) in the course of one module.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remathilis
Those of you who fretted that monsters have too many hp and fights take too long: meet the barbarian. The ULTIMATE "Lets speed this combat up, I need to whiz" class!
yea...I should guessed it didn't count, but had they said nothing I am sure it would have been evadance of lack of communcation...beutiful thing about already makeing up your mind is anything that dissagrees doesn't count...
I already stated in my original post that you responded to that WotC has no problem discussing new products. I do not disagree with you on that.
The people here are talking about WotC discussing stealth game design and philosophy changes, not future monk features.
So, I think your example does not disprove my point in any way, rather it supports my POV.
Care to try again with an example about core game mechanic changes where WotC came out and talked about why they changed them? The only one I can think of is the Skill Challenge errata that really didn't fix the problem.
__________________ The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action.
The people here are talking about WotC discussing stealth game design and philosophy changes, not future monk features.
I am not sure WOTC see it like that. There was a comment from Mr Mearls ages ago (post release design article?) how one of the great things about 4e modularity was the ease with which it could be patched. I assumed they might mean feats & hoped for thing like the 1/2 elf paragon feat for its diletante power, or a really strong feat that made tieflings good infernal warlocks, or a couple of powers that made the Star pact paragon path fear save penalty have some actual effect, for examples. This last dead end reminds me of CCG design where a weak inital theme is left to wither rather than being developed. At least jank powers take up less space than jank cards.
I was not expecting these horrible, stupid OP (or are they maths fix?) expertise feats.
In this case, the sentiment remains the same. "The best way to interprete the rules is to let a computer program do it?" Yikes!
Off-topic, but...
Yes, using the tool wherein the game designers have implemented their interpretations of the rules can be a great way to interpret the rules. Since many rules interpretations might not get posted anywere else, this can be a great way to find out the "offical" rules.
On the other hand, you must take things in the Character Builder with a grain of salt because sometimes there are errors and they may not get corrected for a month or two (or possibly longer). On the other, other hand (the third hand?) those items get noted in the Character Builder FAQ.
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