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I'm already guessing the answer is no, but I figured I'd ask the rules gurus here...
The Scion of Arkhosia Paragon Path has two powers that are variations of the Dragon Breath racial feature. Do feats, such as Empowered Dragon Breath, enhance those powers as well?
I agree with Majushi. Clinging Breath and Dragon's Wrath don't augment your breath, their seperate powers, so Empower Breath etc. don't apply.
Yep, I would agree with that too. I would like it if they applied, but they don't. If you're looking for a Paragon Path that will get you more mileage out of your feats, then you might want to check out the Inner Dragon Fighter PP in Martial Power (if you're a Fighter that is). It gives you a second use of your Dragon Breath as a free action when you spend an Action Point while bloodied IIRC.
I'd honestly like to know whether anyone has taken this PP given all the limitations. (e.g. can't do anything whilst "flying"). What's the point of using this. Better off just getting some flying boots and using the dragonborn breath feats. I have Hurl Breath which is great for targetting minions strategically, but once I get to lvl 11 I can't see it changing the outcome of a battle much. What's the point of getting past people's defenses better (change breath type), if the damage is so limited and doesn't even stack with Empowered Breath?
This PP screams for a re-working and house rules. Who wants to play a character with wings who can't really fly? Seems weak and ultimately disappointing to me.
I have my own rules on the matter, all feat-based, which I suggested to Dragon magazine but they didn't pick it up. The basic of it all is:
Quote:
Dragon Wings [Dragonborn]
Prerequisite: dragonborn, Str 15, trained in Athletics Benefit: You grow draconic wings. Any jumps you make are treated as if you had a running start, and you calculate the distance you jump with high jumps in squares, just like long jumps. The distance you jump can exceed your speed.
You can use an Athletics check to reduce falling damage instead of Acrobatics.
That's very cool, both mechanics-wise and flavour-wise. I might ask (beg) my DM to let me take it. That said, there should be a follow-up feat that allows you to get even bigger wings (maybe str 19 minimum) and allows you flight (maybe a rest once every few rounds, depending on your con bonus, say).
I was thinking of making an epic-level Dragonborn class, called Dragon Re-born. Basically it's a ritual that turns you into an actual dragon, with all the pluses and minuses that entails. You start off small and get larger, with the ability to shape-shift back into your pre-cocoon dragonborn shape for when you need it. Dragons should have that magical ability, anyway. (I admit, I haven't read the 4e dragons yet, being that I like to have surprises and I'm just a player)
That's very cool, both mechanics-wise and flavour-wise. I might ask (beg) my DM to let me take it. That said, there should be a follow-up feat that allows you to get even bigger wings (maybe str 19 minimum) and allows you flight (maybe a rest once every few rounds, depending on your con bonus, say).
I was thinking of making an epic-level Dragonborn class, called Dragon Re-born. Basically it's a ritual that turns you into an actual dragon, with all the pluses and minuses that entails. You start off small and get larger, with the ability to shape-shift back into your pre-cocoon dragonborn shape for when you need it. Dragons should have that magical ability, anyway. (I admit, I haven't read the 4e dragons yet, being that I like to have surprises and I'm just a player)
Oh, there certainly were follow-up feats. Here are a couple:
Quote:
Dragon Pounce [Dragonborn]
Prerequisite: dragonborn, Dragon Wings Benefit: If you make a jump or fly as part of a charging bull rush, and you succeed on your bull rush attempt, you may knock the target prone instead of pushing it 1 square.
Paragon feat:
Quote:
Dragon Flight [Dragonborn]
Prerequsitie: dragonborn, Str 17, Con 17, Dragon Wings Benefit: You can swap a 16th-level utility power you know for the Dragon Flight power.
Dragon Flight Feat Power Daily
Move Action Personal
Effect: You gain a fly (clumsy) speed equal to your speed + 2 until the end of the encounter.
And here's a snippet of the flavour text:
Quote:
Squires among the Winged Knights were capable of great leaps, making them very mobile in the battlefield, and the senior officers were capable of tackling flying foes and bringing them crashing to the ground. These capabilities marked the Winged Knights as a form of mobile infantry, as opposed to the full aerial force of true dragons, and some trace the origin of the word “dragoon” to the order. Winged Knights riding wyverns and leaping off to fight as separate combatants weren’t unheard of. And the ability of the highest Knights to cover great distances on the wing made the Winged Knights the most effective emergency response force in the empire of Arkhosia.
Claus you are a god-send. now, to decide what feats I would have to give up to achieve this.
Although, honestly spending two feats to be able to fly for 5 min 1/day is kinda rough, for Paragon level. Don't get me wrong, it's good, but still limiting. I'd much rather be able to fly at will at my normal speed, and say with light armor or with some type of slow-down depending on weight carried (for realism). Comparing these to Scion of Arkhosia with 12 overland by lvl 16 and the cost of perhaps a better paragon path, is still quite good. I think it would be even better to have a Heroic Wings (overland-flight at normal speed), and Paragon Wings (actual flight, at Paragon), with speed + encumbrance + endurance limitations. Suddenly, the Endurance skill seems much better and actually useful to take. Hovering could be a DC 20 Endurance check, a round after which you fall unless you can land in time. If I need to fly farther/longer I can banish my summoned plate, making it seem realistic that it would be quite tough to lift yourself up and sustain flight while carrying such a heavy load. Then again, does anyone make a Plate type that is super light? maybe in AV2? Like as an at-will power with a penalty to AC when in light-mode.
The question is, what do you intend to achieve by flying? The image I had in mind when creating these feats was Disney's Gargoyles, leaping and gliding and stuff. I don't see the dragonborn fluttering about during battle.
There's at least two other feats that I created that grant some flying: Winged Slash is another power-swap feat, which lets you fly up to twice your speed and make an attack at any point during the flight (requires a two-handed sword or axe); Mighty Dragon Wings is an epic-tier power-swap feat that grants an overland speed once per day that lasts for 4 hours or until the PC lands for 5 minutes (and the PC is weakened during the flight and until he takes an extended rest).
So you can say this is more about the fluff guiding the mechanics.
flying with hovering and actions mid-air is what I'm hoping to achieve by Epic. I kind of DO like the hopping gargoyle + knockdown flavour of the early levels when your wings are fresh out of the cocoon and still weak. But by Epic I expect them to grow strong to do some serious fighting in the air. If 4e powers aren't well balanced for that, well, so what? Why not balance them. A clever DM should have no trouble having a few archers in every battle, some flying creatures to keep him busy, and some traps and special vulnerabilities (thinking of the sort : net + falling damage).
If I can't hit with a ranged attack more than 5-10 squares (hand ax or dragon breath), then they can certainly hit me within that range too. Although, I hope to have combat advantage when aiming from above. Let's say you fire arrows down from a rooftop, do you get CA? Same thing here. I'm actually fine with the overland flight thing too, come to think of it, so long as there is an Epic path that continues the Scion of Arkhosia line of thinking. Being able to fly over large bodies of lava and carry over a line for your friends to scurry across is a very huge non-combat advantage, for a party with no Wizard. I'm thinking of all the tons of non-combat things I would do with this, and maybe combine it with some feather fall items to reduce falling damage if I ever get knocked out of the sky some how. I just love the kocking enemies prone on a charge bit, though.
Too bad wizards didn't think of that. I have a hard time convincing my DM to let in much that's not in a core rulebook and sufficiently non-uber. Thing is, I was kind of set on taking ranger paragon multiclass (for twin war axe action), and I'm really not sure if this is a worthwhile tradeoff. Especially with new items, feats, classes coming out, etc.
I currently have Hurl Breath from the Dragon magazine, and I love it. Taking this PP would allow me to drop that feat and take something else (probably Empowered Breath). Although it vexes me to think the d10s wouldn't affect the lvl 11 power of this class, or that Enlarged Breath wouldn't increase it from burst 2 to 3. It's just so frustratingly silly wrestling with these rules that don't synergize with each other. (on purpose, it seems). I really liked the Arcana Unearthed way of doing racial levels (say, going from pixy to sprite, or going Large when playing a Giant). These things are spectacular and fun. Spending a year of solid playing time in real life and then getting "fully-formed" wings that don't really work is quite a frustrating prospect indeed. Why can't you hover in air as a move action and take an attack? It makes no sense.
I like your clumsy flight idea where you take negatives and have to move at least two squares, but at least you can do other stuff. I mean, does overland flight mean you can't even unsheathe your weapon while descending on your foes or down a healing potion? (it's free actions only) I mean, how lame is that? People in the real world can jump out of airplanes and do backflips with surfboards (repeatedly). Dragonborn with wings should be able to do that too, with sufficient years of practice and strengthening. (IMO)
While I never got that far into the design, I could see an Epic-tier feat (or maybe an Epic Destiny?) that allowed for a more extensive flight. Probably an Epic Destiny, since it's something that seems much more specialized.
As for Overland flight, if the character takes any other action, he falls (i.e., descends his speed). If he doesn't reach the ground by then, he can resume his flight (or else crash). If he reaches the ground, he can even land unharmed.
Let's say I have feather fall effect (some magic boots or something that bestows that), on a regular non-flying character...can I walk off the ledge and slowly drift down, firing arrows at stuff while descending? If that's the case, the Overland Flight thing could easily allow the use of your standards + minors in the same round as flying, so long as you stop to hover, do your action as you begin falling from the distraction due to not focusing on your wings (this really, should go away or just make it clumsy). At least allow a darn minor action while flying for f-s sake. I'm gonna ask my DM if I can at least do my dragonbreath while in the air if I take this PP.
Otherwise it's just too dumb+boring a path to take. I mean, you can't even unsheathe a dagger while in the air, let alone use it, otherwise you crash? How lame is *that*? Totally unheroic in the extreme. As I wrote in another thread, even a 1st level wizard in 2nd ed could accomplish more than a 16th level Scion, with a plain-old Alter Self. (grow wings and dive bomb with your long sword..if an elf. Cast spells in the air). Why is it so bad to cast spells in the air? Or a dragonborn shoot his lighting breath before swooping down into battle? What's the point?
I think there's something seriously wrong with enforcing artificial, unrealistic constraints that don't allow you to even attempt mundane things that don't require much concentration while taking a move action with a creature's natural mode of locomotion. At least make it an Athletics check to do both, and if you fail that check, then you fall.
Last edited by doggywoggy; 30th May 2009 at 10:20 PM..
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