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Increase Tail Lash’s damage by 2d8 to 4d8+12 damage. Add “Special: While Orcus is bloodied, Tail Lash becomes a minor action, usable once a round (it’s no longer an immediate reaction).”
I like this change, but it also reminds me of another factor which has been irritating me for quite some time now - namely that Orcus makes very poor use of the action economy, since he has no swift action abilities available to him!
This means that every round, he attacks once, then moves, even if it may not necessarily be in his best interests to move. At least with an at-will swift power, he can use it 1/round, and maybe convert his move to another swift if he does not need to move.
I think it may be better to convert his tail lash to a swift action ability usable at all times. He still retains the ability to lash out with it as an immediate action, and designate another ability while bloodied (or the ability to lash out could be his bloodied ability).
Though personally, I would prefer for him to have 1 move, 1 standard, 1 swift and 1 interrupt ability, so he can maximize his action quota for the each round.
Compare this with demogorgon, who gets to move into a choice square, attack with 2 standard-action powers, follow up with 2 swift-action powers, potentially 1 more with action point, then move away. He clearly makes much more efficient use of the actions allotted to him.
Great changes Elric, pretty much optimal in my opinion!
Though I consider to give him one or two more encounter/recharge powers, to keep the combat more interesting as he has more options available to him. Not the greatest cilmatic battle if your BBEG has to rely only on at-will attacks in the third round already, in my opinion.
I think it may be better to convert his tail lash to a swift action ability usable at all times. He still retains the ability to lash out with it as an immediate action, and designate another ability while bloodied (or the ability to lash out could be his bloodied ability).
Two uses a round of an attack that stuns doesn't seem like much fun. I was also trying to make a bloodied Orcus feel like less of a skirmisher; Orcus wants to use Hit and Teleport tactics to take advantage of his Tail Lash power before he's bloodied, and changing it to a minor action turns him into more of a brawler. If you make Tail Lash a minor action all the time, then you never get the transition from "skirmisher Orcus" to "brute Orcus."
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Originally Posted by Rhuarc
Great changes Elric, pretty much optimal in my opinion!
Though I consider to give him one or two more encounter/recharge powers, to keep the combat more interesting as he has more options available to him. Not the greatest climatic battle if your BBEG has to rely only on at-will attacks in the third round already, in my opinion.
Thanks! Since Orcus is a brute, maybe a recharge power that's like his Wand of Orcus, but also pushes and knocks prone?
Something like:
Overpowering Strike (standard action, recharge 5/6)
Orcus makes a Wand of Orcus attack. On a hit, the target is pushed 3 squares and knocked prone.
Something like:
Overpowering Strike (standard action, recharge 5/6)
Orcus makes a Wand of Orcus attack. On a hit, the target is pushed 3 squares and knocked prone.
Looks like a good one!
Maybe another area attack power as well:
Sweeping Death (standard action, encounter, only usable while bloodied)
Close Burst 4, 3d12+12 damage
These should be enough to keep Orcus' options above at-wills for most of the time and supports his Brute role.
The monster roles are clearly meant to be roughly equal. However, that doesn't mean the solution to "soldiers are the best role" is "make all other monsters as powerful as soldiers." One should probably try to adjust roles using the current median strength role as a baseline.
Exactly. The Soldier seems to be the fly in the ointment. I think maybe removing the Initiative Bonus and lowering its defenses by 2 and lowering its attack vs. defenses by 2 would help.
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Looking at the MM Solo Artillery, the Blue Dragons, Beholder Eye Tyrant (Disintegrate ray!), and Primordial Naga deal more damage than most solos of a different role at a similar level. So as written, it might make sense to go back and adjust their HP. It's hard to evaluate MM Lurker Solos, because the only one is the Black Dragon (which has the powerful and annoying Cloud of Darkness).
Good spot. All the evidence suggests the base hit point totals for roles should be kept for solo monsters.
Exactly. The Soldier seems to be the fly in the ointment. I think maybe removing the Initiative Bonus and lowering its defenses by 2 and lowering its attack vs. defenses by 2 would help.
Soldiers don't need all defenses lowered by 2. According to the DMG's guidelines (pg 184), their AC is supposed to be the only defense higher than average. However, for MM1 monsters, soldiers have noticeably higher Fort defenses than 12+level, even though Reflex and Will average almost 12+level (see Lots of statistics from the Monster Manual). Soldiers should be designed with the same average FRW defenses as other roles in the first place.
If you were to lower soldier AC and to-hit by 2 vs other defenses, soldiers would have the same stats as skirmishers, without any major advantages to make up for skirmisher mobility.
A soldier's better to-hit bonus ends up making attacks that impose conditions significantly stronger (I think someone else mentioned this earlier in the thread). Soldiers that impose serious conditions with their attacks should have a lower attack bonus. For example, the Ghoul's claw attack is at level+7 vs. AC and it immobilizes and sets the target up for the very powerful Ghoulish Bite.
There's also the problem of soldiers with excessive AC; 16+level is probably fine, but 17+level with an ability that adds 2 more (Hobgoblin Soldiers) can get out of hand.
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Good spot. All the evidence suggests the base hit point totals for roles should be kept for solo monsters.
I wonder to what extent the game design assumes that artillery monsters can ensure they're targeted less in combat (to compensate for low HP) by virtue of having ranged attacks and melee monsters/good position to prevent attackers from getting to them. A (lone) solo artillery might have this ability at a very powerful level (if it flies and its attacks are all ranged; e.g., the Beholder), or it might not have it at all (if it doesn't fly and its best attacks are melee, e.g., the Naga). Another design point to keep in mind.
Sweeping Death (standard action, encounter, only usable while bloodied)
Close Burst 4, 3d12+12 damage
These should be enough to keep Orcus' options above at-wills for most of the time and supports his Brute role.
Thanks. The reason I didn't add a Close Burst/Blast attack for Orcus above is that his two at-wills that the Burst/Blast could be based on are his Tail Lash and Wand of Orcus. Wand of Orcus is the more thematic ability for him to carve through a bunch of enemies with.
However, letting Orcus make a Wand of Orcus attack on multiple opponents in a round without spending an action point is going to lead to a bunch of weakened conditions, which doesn't seem like much fun. The above power seems a little bland (and it needs an attack bonus ), but it's more or less what you get if you try to avoid making a Close attack an explicit Wand of Orcus attack (with the associated Weakened effect). Plus, Orcus is getting pretty strong at this point; he's only a level 33 Solo, after all
I'm wary of overusing the "more powerful when bloodied" characteristic. It seems so, dare-I-say, videogamey, like fighting Gannon and all of a sudden you think he's beaten...then he's more powerful! Then you beat him again and go to the next stage....
However, letting Orcus make a Wand of Orcus attack on multiple opponents in a round without spending an action point is going to lead to a bunch of weakened conditions, which doesn't seem like much fun.
True, and I wouldn't suggest this as well. Though you could say that the Wand of Orcus has a limited amount of channeled power available each round. This power will be enough to weaken a lone enemy, but wouldn't be sufficient to do the same to several creatures at once.
Just an example to explain the lack of a condition within the game
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Originally Posted by Elric
The above power seems a little bland (and it needs an attack bonus ), but it's more or less what you get if you try to avoid making a Close attack an explicit Wand of Orcus attack (with the associated Weakened effect).
Of course, I didn't try to come up with a really flavorful ability, but the thing is that most of the more interesting powers have some conditions associated with them and, at least I, don't want to throw them around in every round.
Furthermore is it completely fine for a brute to just dish out some major damage for once, in my opinion
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Originally Posted by Elric
Plus, Orcus is getting pretty strong at this point; he's only a level 33 Solo, after all
Uhm, that's something I'm not that concerned about. After all should he be the very last boss of a whole campaign, the final foe of your level 30 characters. I admit that I don't have any experience with fights at this level yet, but almost all of the epic destinies look darn powerful to me. I guess they would be able to handle this, though I could be wrong.
Uhm, that's something I'm not that concerned about. After all should he be the very last boss of a whole campaign, the final foe of your level 30 characters. I admit that I don't have any experience with fights at this level yet, but almost all of the epic destinies look darn powerful to me. I guess they would be able to handle this, though I could be wrong.
Sort of.
Something threatening to a party of Demigods all dropping their Divine Regeneration would probably be overwhelming to most other groups, or if those dailies are unavailable.
__________________ "I'd like to shake the hand of the genius who invented that - just the hand, after it's been cut off from the now screaming man."
One interesting thing we haven't examined is DM-created elites and solos by applying the DMG templates.....Should this be changed in the DMG2 section dealing with modifying monsters...
There are some very sick Elites/Solos that one can create by simply applying one template to many of the MM2 entries.
Savage Berserker Template + Humanoid with a basic attacks that does stuff such as either the Erinyes Devil or the Shocktroop Devil...
Something threatening to a party of Demigods all dropping their Divine Regeneration would probably be overwhelming to most other groups, or if those dailies are unavailable.
In fact, Divine Regeneration inspired one of my proposed changes to Orcus, since this ability hits Divine Regeneration particularly hard.
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Originally Posted by Elric
3) Add to Aura of Death: “While Orcus is bloodied, enemies in the aura regain only half the normal amount of hit points when they would regain hit points.”
As you mention, it's tricky to threaten a party where each character has Divine Regeneration available without creating an encounter too tough for non-Demigod parties. Epic level parties often have extremely potent daily powers, and the party's ability to take on tough challenges is going to vary greatly with how many of these are still available. Divine Regeneration is one of the most powerful of the bunch.
Resistances are another problem; Orcus's Aura of Death could vary from quite potent to mostly useless depending on whether the party has almost no necrotic resistance, or every character has Necrotic Resistance 10-15. Necrotic damage is common (see Lots of statistics from the Monster Manual), and in a campaign that features Orcus as the ultimate villain it will probably be even more common, leading players to pick up items that grant necrotic resistance. Edit: That post's data is based on Compendium searches, which might be somewhat biased upwards for necrotic damage compared to a typical campaign's monsters if it includes Open Grave. Still, there are a ton of items that grant necrotic resistance in PH and AV, probably more than any other resistance type.
The Atropal, part of the MM's suggested encounter with Orcus, has an attack power that temporarily negates necrotic resistance, which helps lessen this disparity.
Here’s my take on modifying Orcus (MM, pg 206), taking into account MM2’s changes to solo design guidelines. With a little work, Orcus can become a more interesting and dangerous opponent, while staying true to the basics and the theme of his MM version. Thoughts appreciated.
Only have a few minor points to make.
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1) Reduce HP from 1,525 to 1,320; Change Bloodied from 762 to 660.
Reduce AC by 2, Fort/Ref/Will by 3. This gives AC 46; Fortitude 48; Reflex 43, Will 46
Start by changing Orcus to give him -20% HP and -2 to defenses according to MM2’s design guidelines. I’ve subtracted a little more from F/R/W because even with -2, they’d be well above the 12+level average recommended in the DMG (pg 184). In accord with the change in solo design, HP for a solo=[(level+1)*8+Con]*4 (in MM1, solos at Paragon/Epic have *5 here instead of *4). This would equal 1,220 HP. I’ve added 100 to this because the solo HP formula is independent of role, but as a Brute Orcus has 1 lower AC than baseline AC of 14+level (after my above change to his defenses; note that this is 1 higher than typical Brute AC); otherwise, he wouldn’t gain anything for this AC loss.
As you know I favour the idea of 10 hp base for solo brutes giving him 1492 hp.
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2) Increase the Wand of Orcus’s damage by 2d12 to 4d12+12 damage (plus 1d12 necrotic damage, as before).
Is the default for additional energy damage to:
a) Equal the base damage dice...in this case +4d12
b) Equal 1/2 the base damage dice...in this case +2d12
c) Equal one extra dice (of the same type) per tier...in this case +4d12
You coul also say that, being a weapon it should get a crit bonus.
Something like 4d12 + 12 (Crit: 9d12 + 60*) plus 4d12 necrotic...that should sort out the men from the boys.
*The 9d12 is due to Orcus being the equivalent of a Level 42 standard monster (in terms of EXP), thus giving him a magic threshold of +9. You could always change that to 7d12 though I suppose. I'm not sure what the exact protocol is in this regard.
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Increase Tail Lash’s damage by 2d8 to 4d8+12 damage. Add “Special: While Orcus is bloodied, Tail Lash becomes a minor action, usable once a round (it’s no longer an immediate reaction).”
Would it be an idea to give the tail slash some ongoing poison damage (say 20), so that he has some surprises for those stacking on necrotic defenses?
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I increased the number of damage dice on Orcus’s at-will attacks by 2 each. Tail Lash changing to a minor action when Orcus is bloodied means that Orcus doesn’t have to move around to ensure he can use it every round, and it increases the amount of damage he can deal to a single foe.
Good idea.
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The article D&D Alumni: Demogorgon says that to modify Orcus in accord with MM2’s solo guidelines, reduce his HP by 20%, give him -2 defenses, and increase his damage while bloodied by 50%. This seems insufficient. On the approximation that Orcus spends half his time bloodied, this amounts to +25% damage, which could compensate for -20% HP (on the further approximation that monster damage dealt per encounter is proportional to fight length, and fight length is proportional to monster HP, this works out to the same average damage per encounter), but not -2 to defenses as well. So I’ve done more than just increase Orcus’s damage by 25% (higher level MM1 monsters seem low on damage in the first place).
3) Add to Aura of Death: “While Orcus is bloodied, enemies in the aura regain only half the normal amount of hit points when they would regain hit points.”
Bloodying Orcus should be a big deal. The change to Orcus’s Aura of Death lets you know that it is. A DM should allow a monster Knowledge check, DC 35 Arcana, to give the party at least a clue that they should use healing abilities before he’s bloodied. Something like: “It is said that when Orcus is injured, his anger can rip out the souls of his enemies.”
Cool.
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4) Touch of Death: Change from recharge 6 to: “recharges when first blooded.”
Change the miss effect to: “Miss: The target takes necrotic damage equal to its bloodied value. This cannot reduce the target below 0 HP.”
Making Touch of Death an encounter power with an automatic recharge prevents Orcus from getting lucky and recharging it several times, or getting unlucky and never recharging it. Normally, recharge powers are fine, but this is such a strong attack that the number of times it recharges will have significant impact on the fight. As written, Orcus would sometimes prefer missing with Touch of Death to hitting, so I changed it so this is no longer the case.
Good stuff!
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5) Change Necrotic Burst: Close Burst 10; targets enemies; +38 vs. Fortitude; 2d12+12 necrotic damage, and all undead in the burst regain 20 hit points.
As written, Orcus could accidentally kill most of his undead minions when he uses this power, because if they don’t have necrotic resistance this power’s average damage exceeds the HP that undead regain. Oops! This isn’t just a theoretical concern; the undead level 26 Couatl Mockery minion in Open Grave (pg 185) has no necrotic resistance.
Its a recharge 6 against multiple targets, by my estimation...
I'd also give it a miss for half damage attribute.
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6) Add: Implacable Foe: Whenever an attack or effect imposes a condition (defined on page 277 of the PH), besides marked, Orcus can make a saving throw (without his usual +5 saving throw bonus) to be unaffected by that condition, even against an effect that doesn’t normally allow a save.
Implacable Foe is an important change. Orcus gains Implacable Foe because of issues about the effectiveness of status effects when used on solos. See the discussion here the basic issue is that since a solo has the offense of multiple normal monsters, a power that takes away a round of a solo’s offense can be too strong.
Still examining the options on this, something I know you have thoroughly researched so I'll defer to your god self on the matter.
Anyone know when the FAQ will be out for MM2? I just bought my copy and am reading through it... I noticed in addition to the Behir's minor action to not regurgitate when it only has standard actions, there is a problem with the Angel of Light.
In particular, the Angel of Light's Death Burst - its a close burst versus enemies only, +x vs. fort... but what does it do? Sure, it has an effect that heals allies, but as an effect you don't have to hit for that to work...
As you know I favour the idea of 10 hp base for solo brutes giving him 1492 hp.
If you end up with Orcus having 1492 HP, you'd want to decease his defenses to exactly what the MM formulas give; -1 AC/Fort/Will on top of my previous changes, I'd say.
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Is the default for additional energy damage to:
a) Equal the base damage dice...in this case +4d12
b) Equal 1/2 the base damage dice...in this case +2d12
c) Equal one extra dice (of the same type) per tier...in this case +4d12
You could also say that, being a weapon it should get a crit bonus.
Something like 4d12 + 12 (Crit: 9d12 + 60*) plus 4d12 necrotic...that should sort out the men from the boys.
I'm not sure there is a default for additional energy damage. Whatever makes the overall damage dealt look reasonable. Overall damage of 8d12+12 on an at-will (at +1 to hit over normal Brute attack bonus) that also weakens seems high, even for a level 33 Solo Brute, and dealing 145 average damage on a critical doesn't seem like much fun.
As a solo with 4x the HP of a normal monster, it seems like Orcus should have offense that's a little under 4x as powerful as a typical monster of his level/role (see the discussion here). If you want his offense to be significantly stronger than it is now, either Orcus needs to lose something on the defensive end or he should be higher level.
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Would it be an idea to give the tail slash some ongoing poison damage (say 20), so that he has some surprises for those stacking on necrotic defenses?
Orcus doesn't have any other poison themed abilities as written, and he doesn’t need to deal 20 ongoing poison damage here. His Tail Lash (with my changes) already does 30 average damage on a hit, stuns for a round, and knocks prone. That’s a little less damage than one might expect for a Brute of his level, and he can’t necessarily use it every round before he’s bloodied (though with Teleport, it should be quite often), but stunned for a round + knocked prone is a nasty set of conditions. Side note: I agree with you that the high damage expression table in the DMG seems too close to the medium damage expression at higher levels.
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Its a recharge 6 against multiple targets, by my estimation...
I'd also give it a miss for half damage attribute.
Unlike most multi-attacks, Orcus’s Necrotic Burst will likely hit all of his enemies each time it’s used because it’s Close Burst 10. Also, at +38 vs. Fortitude, its attack bonus is much better than a typical Brute multiattack power vs. FRW for his level (+32 vs. FRW would be typical). It will probably heal each of his allies for 20 HP due to the radius. You could increase the damage a little, but this is already a strong attack.
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Still examining the options on this, something I know you have thoroughly researched so I'll defer to your god self on the matter.
I haven’t come to any firm conclusions on the matter, but Implacable Foe is simple and easy to run, which is why I’m using it for Orcus here.
1) Reduce HP from 1,525 to 1,320; Change Bloodied from 762 to 660.
Reduce AC by 2, Fort/Ref/Will by 3. This gives AC 46; Fortitude 48; Reflex 43, Will 46
I have to admit, the following - while a bit bitter - is honestly what I believe based on my own experiences fighting solos of all tiers.
First, all solos from level 12 and down should absolutely follow the rules in the MM2: 20% fewer HP (at a minimum! 30% fewer would be better) and slightly more powerful attacks. Maybe, 10% more powerful across the board upped to 50% more when bloodied. However, solos that are level 13 and up probably need more HP, not fewer. I'm very specifically picking level 13 because that's when the first (and not the last) game-altering power, Storm of Blades, is available to the party. Once the party has access to this power, solos go from 10-20 round boring slugfests to whimpering 2 or 3 round pitifulness. Yes, that's right: I'm saying that based on my own experience, solos need redesigning based on the assumption that they will take a minimum of 2 or 3 SoB attacks within the first round (probably 2 per character, maybe 2 characters using this power). Second, all solos over level 13 could stand to have a "triggered when bloodied" attack - like a dragon's breath - mostly because that's one of the few attacks they are guaranteed to use even when they are killed in 1 round.
Next, epic-level solos probably don't need their defenses lowered because that's the only thing even close to stopping the wizard or the ranger from killing them in one round. Orcus in particular shouldn't have his will defense lowered by 2, or else the 1-hit wizard will kill him 10% easier. AC probably shouldn't be lowered, either, just because that makes it slightly harder for the support character(s) who gives him a -8 to his AC to hit him in the first place.
Now, if you're dead-set on lowering defenses, you'll need to make him immune to stun/sleep/daze/etc. AND he'll need some kind of power that can avoid simple 10+ hit locks, like "once you've taken your healing surge's value in damage from one character you automatically teleport 10 squares" as an immediate interrupt or something like that. No wait - immediate interrupt isn't a good mechanic because you can't use those when you're under certain conditions - well, it'll just have to happen as a non-action, then.
As I said, this may sound trite, but I couldn't be more serious. Solos past level 13 are misunderstood: they shouldn't be the big-bad final boss; they are best used to soak the 5-6 SoB-like attacks that will be coming (there are several), wizard dailies, and other game-breaking powers so that the REAL boss won't go down in less than 1 round of combat. Well, that's what they end up being, anyway.
A bare handful of broken attacks are not a good impetus to change the core design of Solos - it's a good reason to fix those attacks. Blade Cascade was already fixed, how Storm of Blades got through staggers the imagination.
A bare handful of broken attacks are not a good impetus to change the core design of Solos - it's a good reason to fix those attacks. Blade Cascade was already fixed, how Storm of Blades got through staggers the imagination.
WotC makes them faster than they fix them. A general fix to monsters is probably the better idea. They really are little more than punching bags as it is.
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