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What's really missing here is a discussion about DMing different groups through pre-fab adventures. Sometimes those adventures simply aren't tailored to the group in question. I reject the notion that strikers are the best classes in the game. they are the best damage dealers certainly.
How are the group's resources being managed? Are they being placed in situations where they are unable to take extended rests at will? How do your encounters stack on each other? Do you have any encounters specifically designed to challenge the PCs and eat healing surges? Are there wandering monsters in your adventures? All of these questions are important.
A party with a defender, leader, controller and 2 strikers can weather many different types of encounters better than a party with 5 strikers.
The more I play 4e, the more apparent it becomes that strikers are the best classes in the game, and all other classes are largely unnecessary and only a playstyle choice.....
....Strikers are, for the most part, as durable as any defender class.
This is patently false from so many standpoints. Strikers are generally glass cannons, as they should be. Without proper support, they go down easily against well-designed or well-run foes. They do nicely against certain solos and brutes, but minions, controllers and artillery can give them fits.
The Avenger can have the nice defenses, but a good brute should shred him if he tries to do his schtick.
The Archer Ranger can have his line of sight blocked just like enemy artillery can.
The melee ranger and rogue can't take too many swings on them as their defenses generally aren't great. The barbarian generally has one very poor target defense also.
The Warlock has a lot of controller in him.
I've found that having all the roles covered is very important. When a striker goes down, is there a leader to bring him back and keep him from dying? Is there a defender to absorb a good deal of the attacks coming at the party and keep the damage dealers clean? Can the controller block or harrass opposing artillery and keep minions from egging the strikers? Etc.
I see a Cleric with a Mordenkrad smashing stuff with a vengeance but his ability to heal makes it extremely hard to knock anyone actually out of the fight or dang near double the value of their healing surges.
Also, halving the monster HPs simply plays right in to the PCs hands. Generally speaking, the PCs do a lot more damage on a crit, for example, than most monsters when a couple of pluses hit the weapon. It's basically turning the monster in to a striker-type opponent.
Good suggestions everybody, thanks for the help. I do like the idea of throwing tons of minions at them. The party is somewhat limited in that regard, with only their daily powers being able to affect more than one target at a time. I'm just a little surprised this happened in the first place, since after all, there's only 4 of them when the WotC adventures are based on a party of 5. I've been adding a few extra monsters here and there, but mostly just increasing it from 5 skeletons to 7 for example. Maybe next time they might run into 15 who just happen to be minions.
Just so you know it's not a total shutout, they have failed every single skill challenge so far. They actually look at each other dejected whenever one comes up, because they know what the odds are. I guess that's what happens when no one's trained in Arcana or Religion or Diplomacy.
@mathewfreeman - I can only imagine the complete and utterly torrential downpour of total devastation that is about to envelop the Horned Hold with a party of 7 battering down the door. My hat is off to you if the entire complex doesn't end up ablaze (yes burning stone!), with duergar fleeing for their very lives.
@oldgumphrey - I share your pain. I've had to point at a given monster from time to time, and ask the table what everybody was entitled to do if it were to move. Our PCs just hit 8th level as well, and are at 83, 79, 80, and 82 for defenses. And if anybody's curious, the fighter is the 80 for some reason.
@jayphonic - You're right, the official WotC adventures definitely expect a more heterogeneous party mix. The problem ends up easier to deal with later on...it eventually gets to the point where a higher percentage of the monsters get "evasive maneuvers", which I'm very much looking forward to.
I really can't believe all of this "strikers are glass cannons" noise across this thread, this board, and other boards. I've given empirical evidence showing that strikers regularly have some of the best defenses in the game, but I hear "no, you're wrong, because I said so, and because if I accept that strikers have good defenses, that means OG is right! Screw that!"
I mean the OP comes back saying his fighter has the SECOND WORST defenses in a party of 4, but strikers are glass cannons? Remember the other 3 characters, including the 2 with better defenses than the fighter, are strikers. They also have more ways to get out of the way than fighters do. And they have very similar hit point totals. 1 extra hp / level is really not that big of a deal.
The only classes I've seen that have really outstanding HP totals are rageblood barbs, axe/mace fighters, and guardian wardens. My infernal warlock has more HP than our "tank" paladin, along with higher NADs, endless temporary HP, and multiple teleports. Oh, and I also deal more combat damage by a good margin. And I'm a frickin' warlock, who is supposedly a gimpy striker class.
With full optimization, a defender will be the most durable. Sure. But his damage decreases enough to where that extra bit of defense is meaningless. Strikers should ALWAYS have better defenses than controllers or leaders (except barbarians, who make up for poorer defenses with tons of temporary HP/debuffs and increased burst damage). And in our games, strikers do have better defenses than leaders and controllers (and about half the time, the tanks too).
Also, all striker classes have access to AOE attacks. Some, like the barbarian and sorcerer, get AOE attacks per encounter and on dailies. If you're running 5 strikers, grab a few AoE attacks, and minions no longer pose a threat, either.
@oldgumphrey - I share your pain. I've had to point at a given monster from time to time, and ask the table what everybody was entitled to do if it were to move. Our PCs just hit 8th level as well, and are at 83, 79, 80, and 82 for defenses. And if anybody's curious, the fighter is the 80 for some reason.
Total defenses isn't a great metric, because, particularly in the heroic tier, most attacks go against AC. See the stats here: 51% of heroic tier MM creatures only have attacks against AC, and only 4.4% don't have an attack against AC.
There's an interesting thread on the WotC optimization forums about "party optimization", here. The suggestions tend to be striker-heavy (especially Rangers), but aren't in the vein of "5 strikers." For what it's worth, lordduskblade on the optimization forum has written (very detailed) handbooks on Rangers, Warlords, and Fighters, and he says that fighters are the strongest class in the game at the moment (with rangers and warlords not far behind).
I really can't believe all of this "strikers are glass cannons" noise across this thread, this board, and other boards. I've given empirical evidence showing that strikers regularly have some of the best defenses in the game, but I hear "no, you're wrong, because I said so, and because if I accept that strikers have good defenses, that means OG is right! Screw that!"
Your "empirical evidence" is anecdotal and limted to your specific group and group style. Others have shown in many threads, many times how you are wrong in the game at large.
And combat positions ar also important. The Melee Ranger/Rogue has a 1 better AC than the wizard? Whoopety do. That melee guy is going to get his AC whacked a lot more than the Wizard, for example. You are examining things in a vacuum rather than how the game actually plays on the wider scope.
Last edited by Herschel; 27th May 2009 at 03:39 PM..
@mathewfreeman - I can only imagine the complete and utterly torrential downpour of total devastation that is about to envelop the Horned Hold with a party of 7 battering down the door. My hat is off to you if the entire complex doesn't end up ablaze (yes burning stone!), with duergar fleeing for their very lives.
I know. It's going to be awesome.
I'm planning on running the duregar as smart. The players are going to have to work hard if they want to take everything on one encounter at a time - I'm planning on running encounters together should anyone do anything stupid.
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I haven't had time to read this thread, just the first post, but I have a quick tip...
you mentioned maybe having your players make new characters, which we tried but everyone just made new strikers, why not have them just remake thier characters as hybrids with the new expanded hybrid rules? They can all keep thier original PC, just add new elements and hopefully some diversity. Just an idea
I'm planning on running the duregar as smart. The players are going to have to work hard if they want to take everything on one encounter at a time - I'm planning on running encounters together should anyone do anything stupid.
Smart but with fingers in their ears? The encounters should normally run together into one (or possibly 3) great big sticky blob(s) if you give them reasonable perception checks. The encounters are literally an (open) doorway apart. Unless they're rocking back and forth with their fingers in their ears gibbering "la la la, you're not in my room yet I don't know you're there", then there should be a LOT of encounter overlap.
I'm planning on running the duregar as smart. The players are going to have to work hard if they want to take everything on one encounter at a time - I'm planning on running encounters together should anyone do anything stupid.
I also run Thunderspire, but just with 4 PCs, but they are 2-3 levels about the suggested level now (since they went through all KotS encounters mostly unmodified, and also Thunderspire.)
Some fights were a little ... too easy for my taste, but there were enough situations where the enemy had time to reorganize or it just made sense that reinforcements would be alerted. Combining 2 encounters makes for very challenging, but also very exciting and rewarding encounters. Of course, it leads to the 15 minute adventuring day if you do that all the time, so I try to do it not too often. But the players also say that these are the best and most memorable fights for them, so...
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I'm surprised I actually got support on this point. =P
On the invoker, are you talking about Divine Bolts? How the HECK does Divine Bolts deal more damage than a striker? That's absurd. Level 5...2d6 + 14 is still less than 2d10 + 4 + 1d8 or 1d4 + 2d8 + 10...and the striker can still put it all on one target. If anything, I'd say the Invoker is an example of what the wizard shoulda coulda woulda.
If you're not talking about Divine Bolts, I think I misread the class or something...they still suffer the same limitations as the wizard with "you wind up hitting your own guys a lot". Wizards have a feat tax to get around stuff the Cleric gets around for free, with twinkies.
...
2d6+14 = average 21
2d10+4+1d8 = 19.5
1d4+2d8+10 = 21.5
So, the Invoker is in front of the ranger and just behind the rogue who must have combat advantage to deal the damage. And this is the worst the invoker will "ever" get in damage.
The invoker has powers that only hit enemies: Level 1 Encounter: Astral Terror 7x7 squares 1d6+7+#enemies* damage VS Will Level 3 Encounter: Sun Hammer 3x3 squares, 1d10+7+#enemies* damage VS Fort, +2 extra damage if you have a bloodied ally in the area. Level 1 Daily: Angelic Echeolon 7x7 squares 1d6+7+#enemies* +5 damage if they attack, vs Will
Etc...
The damage might not look spectacular, but on a Human invoker having Action Surge and using an Action point it hits really hard. At level 1 he regularly hit all my mobs with his daily (+8 to hit VS will), doing 1d6+5+7 and the mobs took 5 more damage if they wanted to do something, so 20 damage x5 = 100 damage, and then he followed up with Astral Terror for 1d6+5+5 = 13.5 damage to 5 enemies (2 were minions that are now dead), so another 67.5 damage, for a total of 167.5 damage in one round.
He can offcourse not do this every encounter, he usually only hits 2-3 mobs at a time doing about the same damage as a striker (more if he can hit 3 mobs). When he novas it is spectacular.
The only time he does less damage than a striker is if he can only hit one mob. Usually, that is NOT a problem, because that usually means all the other mobs are dead. It happens maybe every 10 encounters (solo mob).
*Class Feature: Covenant of Wrath -> Covenant of Manifestation.
Also, do not underestimate throwing encounters at the party that occur in waves. Having minions, a soldier or two and artillery in the first wave, followed by minions, lurker and/or striker in the second wave can be effective.
Usually by the time the second wave rolls in, your party will have used up most of their AOE and encounter powers. (especially an over confident group that may try and size up the encounter based on the initial wave)
And again, taking a longer view of a series of encounters whittling down party resources can make for some very challenging and exciting combats towards the end of the "day".
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Absolutley... Strikers can deal metric -loads of damage, but they still have trouble hitting more than one target at a time. A horde of appropriate level minions backed up by some artillery can overwhelm a group of strikers pretty quickly.
I've got a striker heavy group I'm running for as well, with 1.5 defenders, .5 leader and 4 strikers. I've found that even worse than minions is monsters 2-3 levels lower than the party. They still go down fast(2 hits, generally), but do better damage when they hit. Minions seem to drop too fast to be a viable threat.
I'm playing in a party of four consisting of two defenders (fighter and swordmage), a cleric and a wizard. We have no strikers. According to Old Gumphrey, that's just about the least optimal party imaginable and we should be slogging slowly through fights and stretching our resources to breaking point trying to soak up the damage that we suffer when we can't dispatch monsters quickly enough.
Funnily enough, we find the exact opposite to be the case. Fights tend to be brief and brutal as the party works together to split up the enemy, press them into position and hit them hard. The fighter can pin down one or two monsters, or even just lure them in before stepping aside for the wizard to hit multiple foes with an AoE attack, the swordmage is everywhere at once, forcing enemy artillary into melee, making them pay if they chose to attack the rest of the party and frequently making use of the grouped monsters around the fighter for his own AoE attacks, and the cleric distributes bonuses to hit, bonuses to defenses and healing when needed. We often finish encounters with encounter powers unused simply because we didn't need them, ditto for daily pwoers when we settle down for a long rest.
Having played with a few different groups, I'm tempted to suggest that the defining feature of strikers is not just the damage but the fact that they are frequently loners (some more than others - the rogue likes a flanking buddy). A group of people who enjoy playing strikers probably doesn't take the time to appreciate the teamwork aspects of a mixed party and see how they can enhance the performance of the group. A classic example being the apparent difficulty in hitting multiple monsters with AoE attacks - if everyone is out for themselves then it's hard to manage, especially wihtout hitting allies, but if the party works together, as ours does, then they wizard can be hitting three targets with relative ease, at which point the damage really does stack up, in addition to whatever status effects the wizard is applying.
I would argue that a fighter is a more effective addition to an all-striker party than another striker. The fighter can deal some serious damage with a good to-hit value, and is alongside (just ahead of) the strikers in terms of defense/hp. Moreover, the fighter's mark/OAs make him an excellent striker in certain situations. Enemies that attempt to escape from a striker would have difficulty doing so against a fighter, who can prevent movement with OAs and smack anyone that tries to get away. Fighters were made to be hard to get past, but they are also very hard to get away from. Working as a defender is more of an option for fighters than a requirement, and I find that they tend to have more damage output than anyone else other than fighters.
Controllers are IMO the worst class. Every class can take area attacks if necessary. Minions really just exist to add flavor, you don't need a party roll dedicated to taking them out.
Defenders, as mentioned by OP, are useless unless they can do something else. I would recommend paladins or fighters. Paladins are only useful if your party has no healing, otherwise they are basically weak fighters.
Leaders can be OK if your party really needs the healing. Again, if they don't deal some decent damage, they are pretty useless. Your party may as well just carry potions. I prefer the warlord. It can heal and also deal damage like a fighter. Finally, the warlord is great for moving allies and enemies so that the strikers can deal their damage. My warlord often gives combat advantage to the rogue that otherwise wouldn't have it.
I think my optimum party would be fighter, warlord, 3 strikers. I prefer melee strikers, so probably 2 rogues and a ranger. Maybe replace 1 rogue by avenger. By making a few of the characters dragonborn, and by picking powers carefully, there should be no problems from minions.
Controllers are IMO the worst class. Every class can take area attacks if necessary. Minions really just exist to add flavor, you don't need a party roll dedicated to taking them out.
That's a pretty simplistic view of Controllers, though. While minion-killing area attacks are one major aspect of Controllers, the other is... well... controlling the enemies... Hindering them and limiting their options through conditions, zones, and other sustained effects.
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That's a pretty simplistic view of Controllers, though. While minion-killing area attacks are one major aspect of Controllers, the other is... well... controlling the enemies... Hindering them and limiting their options through conditions, zones, and other sustained effects.
I just prefer to 'control' them with strikers using such conditions as 'dead', 'stabbed', 'on fire', and (may favorite) 'on fire and dead'. :P
I just prefer to 'control' them with strikers using such conditions as 'dead', 'stabbed', 'on fire', and (may favorite) 'on fire and dead'. :P
I prefer the dead condition over all others, my vote is for *all* striker groups being most efficient.
Although I reserve the caveat of all strikers and one leader (preferably cleric) to make the adventuring day last longer.
As I have espoused the same line of thought as OG, I think controllers and defenders are there purely for nostalgia's sake. In previous editions all classes fell into buffer or striker rolls with the best doing both (CoDzilla).
It really is sad that my favorite archetype is so weak in this edition. My wizard was absolutely creamed by a rogue in one-on-one combat. Controllers are apparently designed to not exist outside of the party anymore. They are more like a 3e bard now, rather than sit back and drizzle on a party bonus, they sit back and drizzle on a little damage. Weak sauce, my wizard died, good riddance those mechanics - hello avenger...
That's a pretty simplistic view of Controllers, though. While minion-killing area attacks are one major aspect of Controllers, the other is... well... controlling the enemies... Hindering them and limiting their options through conditions, zones, and other sustained effects.
All strikers hinder enemies and inflict conditions. They don't use zones, but they don't need to. Wizard zones are crap, anyway. They hurt your party. While you can time the AoE areas and bursts, the zones just make big areas for your party to avoid and *possibly* push bad guys into. It's 10x more efficient to just play a different class and deal 3x more damage to a single target, take him out more quickly, thus obviating the need for the controller to even be present in the first place.
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