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If so, would that be the neck, or could it be whatever slot you decide to slot it into?
If not, is there any reason to hold a Holy Symbol that is not a weapon in one's hand?
I would say no because it is an implement. So I rule it like it is an Orb something that is not a weapon (unless you have a Holy Avenger weapon) but allows for implement bonuses for your powers with no particular slot being used.
Yeah, that confused me at first too, especially when I noticed the Cleric doesn't have any proficiency with shields.
I figured it was because they had to hold their holy symbol in the off hand, but since they don't and Holy Symbols can be worn, I'm not sure why they lost the shield...
Tough question. On the one hand, I'd usually say that a holy symbol needs to be held in order to be used as an implement. What's the stop the party's wizard from taking a trip to the blacksmith and having his orb hanging from a chain from his backpack?
But the drawback is that characters who use both hands and need a holy symbol (paladins, avengers...clerics with a shield) are pretty much SOL unless they get a Crusader's Weapon.
It's a tough call. I'm gonna go with its fine to say that the holy symbol doesn't take up an item slot and can be used while hanging around your neck as long as the rule isn't abused (i.e. a laser cleric dual-wielding shields, or a person with 12 holy symbols hanging from their neck, each one keyed to killing a specific monster class).
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Tough question. On the one hand, I'd usually say that a holy symbol needs to be held in order to be used as an implement. What's the stop the party's wizard from taking a trip to the blacksmith and having his orb hanging from a chain from his backpack?
But the drawback is that characters who use both hands and need a holy symbol (paladins, avengers...clerics with a shield) are pretty much SOL unless they get a Crusader's Weapon.
It's a tough call. I'm gonna go with its fine to say that the holy symbol doesn't take up an item slot and can be used while hanging around your neck as long as the rule isn't abused (i.e. a laser cleric dual-wielding shields, or a person with 12 holy symbols hanging from their neck, each one keyed to killing a specific monster class).
I would say no, just because the Orb is hanging on a necklace does not do enough to "use" it by the way I understand it. To tap into into it you must have in your hand. Then again now you see why Holy Avenger weapons are so valued given they can be an implement and a weapon without having to spend a feat on it.
I would modify the Dual Implement Feat for Divine characters (I can see it coming anyway). Basically where you can use a holy symbol and a weapon or Weapon and Shield and ONE holy symbol (so that if you have a Holy Avenger Weapon my advice is retrain the feat. If the Holy Symbol doesn't have to be held (I assumed it did but no matter, just spend a feat for Shield Profenciency.
Last edited by GameJunkie; 29th May 2009 at 08:34 PM..
Unlike other implements, you need only to wear a holy symbol for its property or power to function. If you are wearing or holding more than one holy symbol, none of your symbols function.
So holy symbols does not require an item slot. Or rather, I prefer to think of it as Holy Symbols occupying the "holy symbol" item slot, which amounts to the same thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Incognito
It's a tough call. I'm gonna go with its fine to say that the holy symbol doesn't take up an item slot and can be used while hanging around your neck as long as the rule isn't abused (i.e. a laser cleric dual-wielding shields, or a person with 12 holy symbols hanging from their neck, each one keyed to killing a specific monster class).
I don't think you need to worry, not about these two cases anyway.
While a Holy Symbol is unique among "attack tools" (weapons and implements) in how it doesn't need to be handled in any way (in other words, even if you get both arms cut off, you can still use powers through a Holy Symbol), the rules for shields does specifically talk about the "shield arm" and the "shield hand". The implication is that you only wear one, but no, it isn't spelled out.
But in any event, the shield bonus to AC and Reflex doesn't stack. And you don't get to benefit from two magical shields, you only have one "arms" slot - so two magic shields can't be used at the same time. So I don't see any benefit from dual-wielding shields.
The other abuse case is simply not an issue - the rules clearly state "if you are wearing or holding more than one holy symbol, none of your symbols function."
I cannot believe that there is any controversy over this at all. The character builder has a holy symbol slot-- it does not take up a neck slot, or an arm slot, or any other slot-- it is its own slot-- probably because it does not take up any official slot. In CB you can make a character with every slot filled AND a holy symbol. End of discussion.
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I agree with the ruling, epochrpg, but not with your elevating the character builder to a rules source. Software always has bugs; the bugs in the character builder are not rules.
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Unlike other implements, you need only to wear a holy symbol for its property or power to function. If you are wearing or holding more than one holy symbol, none of your symbols function.
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I agree with the ruling, epochrpg, but not with your elevating the character builder to a rules source. Software always has bugs; the bugs in the character builder are not rules.
I don't know how anyone could even imagine a slot available for the Holy Symbol could be a bug.
It clearly isn't.
I agree with the sentiment that Character Builder isn't necessarily the best source for information, but in this case it clearly proves that Holy Symbols have their own "item slot".
That is not a bug. That is a game rule being expressed as a program feature.
Clearly.
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I don't know how anyone could even imagine a slot available for the Holy Symbol could be a bug.
It clearly isn't.
I agree with the sentiment that Character Builder isn't necessarily the best source for information, but in this case it clearly proves that Holy Symbols have their own "item slot".
That is not a bug. That is a game rule being expressed as a program feature.
Clearly.
More broadly, the program features are someone's interpretation of the game rules. When they get things wrong in there, it's not necessarily a bug, it's just that someone who wrote it misinterpreted the rules. So saying "character builder has a slot for holy symbols, therefore they don't require a slot" is as weak an argument as "character builder says that greatswords are free".
More broadly, the program features are someone's interpretation of the game rules. When they get things wrong in there, it's not necessarily a bug, it's just that someone who wrote it misinterpreted the rules. So saying "character builder has a slot for holy symbols, therefore they don't require a slot" is as weak an argument as "character builder says that greatswords are free".
Except one is a rules interpretation and the other is an error in the program.
And for that matter, the same people made both the rules and the program (Wizards)
They're interpreting their own rules.
and the argument isn't; "character builder has a slot for holy symbols, therefore they don't require a slot"
the argument is; "character builder has a seperate slot for holy symbols, thereby indicating that there is a rule stating they do not take up a neck or hand slot."
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Don't use the Character Builder as a rules reference. Simple huh?
Whenever it differs from the rulebooks, the rulebooks take precedence.
So, in short, mistakes happen. When it happens to the CB, it's an error, we'll notice and it gets fixed. When it happens to the rules, it's a feature, we can't know anything's wrong, and it may or may get changed later.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Particle_Man
So there is really no reason to hold a holy symbol in one's hand?
Exactly.
As has been pointed out, the RAW specifically says Holy Symbols are worn (unlike other implements, which must be carried in your hand to function). Since the RAW does not specify where you must wear your holy sysmbol, holy symbols do not occupy one of the standard "item slots".
{EDIT} ...and what the Character Builder says is - quite frankly - irrelevant. It's not a source book, so it is literally not RAW.
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And for that matter, the same people made both the rules and the program (Wizards)
They're interpreting their own rules.
At a certain level of abstraction, yes. But I really doubt that the designers and the programmers are the same individuals, or even overlap. And if there weren't a clear rule for this in the PH, I don't think I'd be comfortable taking the decision of the programmers as official, even given that they work for WOTC.
Maybe I'm just oversensitive to this. I've been struggling with this at my place of employment, where applications I designed are most employees' general interaction with certain company policies. I've found a regrettable tendency amongst the users to start treating the program as if it's the company president--as if the program determines the policy. The program implements the policy; if you don't agree with the policy, arguing with the program or the programmers is not a productive strategy. And it's perfectly possible that the policy it implements is a mistake or a bug--if there's a conflict between the written SOP and what the program allows, then it's the program that's wrong.
Anyway, the point is, the programmers could have implemented this as some kind of workaround in the absence of a printed rule. (If there weren't a printed rule.) And this can conceivably slip past QA and into production. It shouldn't happen, but it does, even at companies with very solid software development practices. And that makes me reluctant to treat the software as a definitive rules source. It's a great and useful tool, but nothing more.
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Exactly christian. There will be some degree of disconnect between those writing the program and those creating the rules, so no matter the difficulty apparent in implementing a rule in the program, we cannot assume that it is correct according to the intent of the rules designers, merely that it is intended by the programmer.
I'm not saying that the Builder is to be used as a rulebook.
What I am saying that the Builder should (in theory) be following the rules correctly.
If you wonder about something, you can check the Builder and see what it says.
Not once have I said that it's a replacement for cracking open a book to check the actual rules.
As for the game designers versus program designers. Of course they're not the exact same individuals.
But the programmer must take their information from the rules to make the program. Otherwise the program itself wouldn't be usable in any capacity, because it simply would not be correct.
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