Detecting Invisibility

[N0Man]

I'm still a little confused about invisibility.

It appears that largely invisibility and stealth are pretty close to one another, and that both allow for the targeted to be detected by the use of an active Perception roll.

However, what if they are invisible due to a magic effect rather than stealth? There was no Stealth roll, so what does the Perception roll oppose? Typically it's the previous active stealth roll, but what about when that doesn't apply?

Most monsters have an invisibility power also have stealth, however it's not universal. Take the Aboleth Overseer for example. It has invisibility, but no stealth.

Is it still rolled against stealth, but in this case, using the Aboleth's base Dex bonus value in place of untrained stealth?

What DC do you use to spot an invisible target that doesn't use stealth?

[hero4hire]

I believe you make a Perception vs their lousy untrained Stealth.

[Lord Ernie]

As I understand it, you can't 'spot' it. It is, after all, invisible. What is possible is finding its location/square with a Perception check, which more or less means you try to hear where they are, rather than see them. If you beat their stealth check with your perception check, you'll know which square they are in, but they'll still have full concealment against you (-5 to your ranged/melee attacks).

[Hereticus]

Originally Posted by Lord Ernie

As I understand it, you can't 'spot' it. It is, after all, invisible. What is possible is finding its location/square with a Perception check, which more or less means you try to hear where they are, rather than see them. If you beat their stealth check with your perception check, you'll know which square they are in, but they'll still have full concealment against you (-5 to your ranged/melee attacks).

How much would an invisible Tenser's Floating Disk add to their Stealth?

[N0Man]

I suppose the parts that confuses me (and seems inconsistent) are:

1) In the case of stealth, an active perception attempt is resolved by a perception check rolled against the stealth roll that was made originally. However, there is no stealth roll made to become invisible to set the difficulty.

2) A stealth check still has to be beat passive perception to even work, and invisibility rules don't seem to even mention passive perception as an option, only active perception.

3) If the effectiveness of invisibility is based on your stealth skill, then what's the point of the effect? In most situations, you could simply use your stealth skill and not bother using a magical effect.

[tmatk]

1. You don't need to make a stealth check to become invisible. My understanding is that being invisible is the same as total concealment. When you become invisible, you can make a stealth check. If that doesn't beat the enemies passive, they know where you are but can't see you, -5 to attack you.

2. PHB2 p222 (or errata) reads "Opposed Check: Stealth vs. passive Perception."

3. You need superior cover or total concealment to make a stealth check. Invisibility gives you that out in the open. Otherwise you have to run behind terrain or something.

[Hereticus]

My Wizard has used Invisibility about a dozen times on himself, and about a half dozen times on others. We use Arcana+5 vs Preception.

Originally Posted by Hereticus

How much would an invisible Tenser's Floating Disk add to their Stealth?

If I am not walking and do not leave a trail or make a sound, how does that effect my Stealth?

There is no good answer as given in an core book.

And what about Stealth in Shadow Form (Warlock Utility 10)?

[MarkB]

If an invisible character does not attempt a Stealth check to move undetected, then opponents will see and/or hear sufficient signs of their movement to know which square they are in.

If the invisible character doesn't move after becoming invisible, things are a little muddier, but I would tend to use the same ruling for simplicity's sake: The character must dedicate a move action (even if he doesn't go anywhere) to make a Stealth check in order to become Hidden. Thereafter, that check result is opposed by opponents' passive Perception checks, and any active ones they choose to make.

[N0Man]

Originally Posted by tmatk

1. You don't need to make a stealth check to become invisible. My understanding is that being invisible is the same as total concealment. When you become invisible, you can make a stealth check. If that doesn't beat the enemies passive, they know where you are but can't see you, -5 to attack you.

I can go along with it acting like total concealment, but it really doesn't answer what the Perception is up against. There is nothing in invisibility that suggests it should be a roll. It's a shame, because if the effect was, "adds +10 to stealth", it might be much simpler.

You say you don't need a stealth check (which seems to be true), but then you say you *can* make a stealth check to see if you beat the passive perception? That doesn't really make much sense.

2. PHB2 p222 (or errata) reads "Opposed Check: Stealth vs. passive Perception."

That is stealth vs active perception, not invisibility. It doesn't explicitly state that invisibility function in the same way that stealth does, and it's debatable if it's implicitly stated.

3. You need superior cover or total concealment to make a stealth check. Invisibility gives you that out in the open. Otherwise you have to run behind terrain or something.

I agree that the effect occurs without the use of cover or conceament, however if it functions like stealth (as you imply in your #2 answer), then like stealth, you can't continue to stand out in the open and still continue to be invisible. However, with actual invisibility, would you still have this limitation?

Here are more reasons that I find invisibility unclear:

1)

[Stalker0]

Pg 281 of the PH answers the invisibility question.

Basically when your invisibility, you should always roll a stealth check vs your enemies passive perception. If you fail, they know your around and what direction to go and find you (but they don't know distance). If you fail by 10 or more, then they know right where you are.

However, no matter how good their perception is, you are invisible. Which means you get:

1) Combat Advantage against them
2) They suffer -5 to attack rolls with melee and ranged attacks vs you.
3) They cannot take opportunity attacks against you.

So even if the enemy can charge right to your square and swing away, he would be at a -5 to hit you.

[mach1.9pants]

Originally Posted by Stalker0

Pg 281 of the PH answers the invisibility question.

That is not correct, that has been errata'd out. Instead of beating the stealth check by ten you just have to beat it. Instead of :

Originally Posted by Original PHB

Invisible Creature Uses Stealth: At the end of a concealed creature’s turn, it makes a Stealth check opposed by your passive Perception check. If you beat it, you know there’s a creature present that you can’t see, and you know the direction to its location. If you beat it by 10 or more, you know exactly what square the creature ended its turn in. The concealed creature also makes a Stealth check if it takes an immediate action or an opportunity action.
Make a Perception Check: On your turn, you can make an active Perception check as a minor action, comparing the result to the concealed creature’s last Stealth check. If
you win, you know the direction to the creature’s location, or its exact location if you beat it by 10 or more.

It is

Originally Posted by PHB2 or errata

Invisible Creatures and Stealth: If an invisible creature is hidden from you (“Stealth,” page 188), you can neither hear nor see it, and you have to guess what space it occupies. If an invisible creature is not hidden from you, you can hear it or sense some other sign of its presence and therefore know what space it occupies, although you still can’t see it.
Make a Perception Check: On your turn, you can make a Perception check as a minor action (page 186) to try to determine the location of an invisible creature that is hidden from you.

Invisibility just lets you stay stealthy in areas you normally wouldn't be able to, it doesn't actually make you any better at being stealthy.

[N0Man]

Originally Posted by mach1.9pants

That is not correct, that has been errata'd out. Instead of beating the stealth check by ten you just have to beat it. Instead of :
It is Invisibility just lets you stay stealthy in areas you normally wouldn't be able to, it doesn't actually make you any better at being stealthy.

I actually wrote a long post but I'm going to edit it out, because when I went back to read what I posted, I saw Mach's post and he made a compelling argument...

You may be on to something, but it really makes Invisibility far less useful to classes that don't have Stealth as a class skill or Dex bonuses. No Mr. Paladin, no Ring of Invisibility for you.

However, it still takes us back to the original problem that you are supposed to be able to make a Perception roll to find someone who is invisible but yet no Invisibility ever state that you need to roll a stealth check, and it is specifically stated for stealth that you do NOT make a new stealth check when someone actively uses Perception to find you.

[mach1.9pants]

Originally Posted by N0Man

However, it still takes us back to the original problem that you are supposed to be able to make a Perception roll to find someone who is invisible but yet no Invisibility ever state that you need to roll a stealth check, and it is specifically stated for stealth that you do NOT make a new stealth check when someone actively uses Perception to find you.

Ah, I see what your problem is. I didn't quite get it until that point.
Unless you make a stealth check check you are automatically perceived, even while invisible. So you have to do a move action and make a stealth check just like anyone with total concealment. If you do not spend a move action to make a stealth check you are target-able.
As I said above invisibility doesn't make you any stealthier it just means you can make stealth checks in situations/places where normally you could not.

EDIT:"supposed to be able to make a Perception roll to find someone who is invisible" I think that roll automatically succeeds if the target hasn't made a stealth roll by using a move action. Am I making sense?

[NMcCoy]

Per the most recent stealth rules (and the nice new Compendium Glossary) - Invisibility doesn't make you Hidden, you need to make a stealth check for that. What this basically boils down to is that being Invisible grants you Total Concealment, Combat Advantage, and immunity to OAs. You can use Stealth to take advantage of the Total Concealment to become Hidden as well, which keeps your enemies from knowing where you are.

[N0Man]

Originally Posted by mach1.9pants

Ah, I see what your problem is. I didn't quite get it until that point.
Unless you make a stealth check check you are automatically perceived, even while invisible. So you have to do a move action and make a stealth check just like anyone with total concealment. If you do not spend a move action to make a stealth check you are target-able.
As I said above invisibility doesn't make you any stealthier it just means you can make stealth checks in situations/places where normally you could not.

EDIT:"supposed to be able to make a Perception roll to find someone who is invisible" I think that roll automatically succeeds if the target hasn't made a stealth roll by using a move action. Am I making sense?

Mach, I think you just solved my problem. After reading your post and rereading the definition of Invisible, I finally realized what I was missing. It's exactly like you stated.

I seemed to have overlooked the important word "if"! I now see that this is describing the difference between an invisible creature that is hidden (stealthed) and one that is not hidden. I also now see that the Perception check is only applying *if* the creature is hidden, otherwise they are automatically perceived (in the sense that you know what space they are in) but you still cannot technically see it.

Thanks for clearing my confusion!

[N0Man]

It seems the long story, short is:

Stealth makes you invisible (and silent).

Invisibility makes you unable to be seen with normal vision (but doesn't make you stealthed).

Invisibility and Stealth both give Total Concealment.

I think that covers it. Heck, I think that's even a Superior Cover, but that's another thread. ;-)

[Hereticus]

Any Wizard who walks while Invisible deserves to be perceived.

Has anyone here actually played a Wizard beyond 6th level, or are they just quoting rules?

[Jack99]

Originally Posted by Hereticus

Any Wizard who walks while Invisible deserves to be perceived.

Has anyone here actually played a Wizard beyond 6th level, or are they just quoting rules?

I DM for a 15th level wizard, and have played one myself (although only for a few months, then he was eaten). Why do you ask about the play experience since its clearly a rules issue?

[webrunner]

- Invisibility gives you the property that you cannot be seen by normal vision. This means you have total concealment, and can make stealth checks whenever you want. It doesn't make you silent.

- Invisibility also makes you immune to opportunity attacks (you have to be able to see who you're opportunity attacking), as well as some various effects (FIghter 7 "Come and Get it" specifically targets things you can see). It also gives you combat advantage.

- Everything still knows which square you're in, and things with other vision types (such as tremorsense, blindsense, truesight) can see you normally.

- Successfully stealthing means you become silent and unseen. You need to be in total concealment or superior cover to stealth (barring things like Bluff, etc), but you only need to remain in regular cover or concealment. If you are invisible you can stay stealthed out in the middle of nowhere.

- Anything that breaks stealth doesn't break it until the end of the action it occurs, so if you stealth, and then charge, you are not visible until after the charge.

So invisibility does make stealth better- you can stealth past things without stuff to hide behind. It also makes things better without a stealth roll: you are still very hard to hit and it's easier to hit everything else.

[Hereticus]

Originally Posted by Jack99

I DM for a 15th level wizard, and have played one myself (although only for a few months, then he was eaten). Why do you ask about the play experience since its clearly a rules issue?

Play experience creates a need for new ways to look at rules. My wizard came up from first level, and the DM was very tough on us when we didn't think things out. Like walking on a dusty floor or creaky floor while invisible.

Yes there are times when I have cast invisibility on others, like the stealthy halfling rogue, but never use it myself without a floating disk. And when stealth is not the appropriate mechanism, we use perception vs arcana +5.

I asked because I am curious, do other wizards use invisibility without floating disk?

And better than invisibility is blur... as long as I stay five squares away and keep moving.

I multi-classed to Warlock, and am still trying to figure out the stealth benefit (if any) of Shadow Form.