Holy cow my party is all strikers!! Forked Thread: Holy cow my party has 3 strikers

[AllisterH]

Originally Posted by Mustrum_Ridcully

Nah, no house rules, how ever good or suggested they might be. Again, credibility of the "test" is critical. If you think a power is obviously broken, just don't use it all and maybe take a note why.

So only things that appear in the three core books then....

Would custom monsters be allowable or even templated creatures or just the creatures from the MM allowable?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by AllisterH

So only things that appear in the three core books then....

Would custom monsters be allowable or even templated creatures or just the creatures from the MM allowable?

Less relevant, overall. If anything of them is broken, they are probably broken for all classes and roles.

[Pickles JG]

Originally Posted by Herschel

SPEC1-2 discussion (spoilers) - Wizards Community

Ibixat makes some good observations in his post about a Striker-heavy party in a forum where they had experienced players.

He concludes its doable with a bit of MC leader - which I would expect any serious all striker party to have. The scenario is a nightmare - it's about right on low for 9th level characters as in challenging without being too grindy.

I think good contrelled conditions are the PHB for PCs & anything for monsters as we are not testing them. that said given the MM2 solo revision I would be inclined to stick with those more than MM1 ones.
Similarly the DMG rules for templates often give huge defence boosts, which are not really needed = more offence is. I think there are enough monsters to go round on DDI without templates or homebrew.

[Pickles JG]

Here is a striker team for perusal. Being Ranger Ranger Rogue Warlock. I went halfing artful dodger to get another race in, though he is a bit more controlly. THe warlock is the toughest character by some way so despite being "ranged" he had better to be happy in the front lines

One thing about sticking with PHB only - there are fewer offensive feats giving more room for MC leader stuff. Everyone can afford a bunch of potions too - more than their healing surges can cope with IMO.

Good luck trying to absorb this - though the import from clipboard function is great.

Suggestions welcome especially for the multi implement warlock...

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder
Torbera, level 8
Dwarf, Warlock
Build: Scourge Warlock
Eldritch Blast: Eldritch Blast Constitution
Eldritch Pact: Infernal Pact
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 20, Dex 8, Int 18, Wis 13, Cha 10.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 16, Dex 8, Int 16, Wis 11, Cha 10.

AC: 23 Fort: 21 Reflex: 21 Will: 18
HP: 67 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 16
TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +13, Arcana +13, Insight +10, History +13, Endurance +15
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +2, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +7, Heal +5, Intimidate +4, Nature +5, Perception +5, Stealth +2, Streetwise +4, Thievery +2, Athletics +4
FEATS
Level 1: Improved Dark One's Blessing
Level 2: Armor Proficiency (Hide)
Level 4: Student of Battle
Level 6: Weapon Focus (Light Blade)
Level 8: Acolyte Power
POWERS
Warlock daily 1: Armor of Agathys
Warlock daily 5: Avernian Eruption
Warlock encounter 1: Diabolic Grasp
Warlock encounter 3: Fiery Bolt
Warlock encounter 7: Howl of Doom
Warlock utility 2: Fiendish Resilience (retrained to Aid the Injured at Acolyte Power)
Warlock utility 6: Dark One's Own Luck
ITEMS
Pact Blade Dagger +2, Adventurer's Kit, Delver's Hide Armor +2, Amulet of False Life +2, Rod of Reaving +1, Quickcurse Rod +1, Rod of Corruption +1
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder

Erik PHB, level 8
Human, Ranger
Build: Two-Blade Ranger
Fighting Style: Two-Blade Fighting Style
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 20, Con 14, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 14, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8.

AC: 23 Fort: 23 Reflex: 19 Will: 20
HP: 66 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 16
TRAINED SKILLS
Stealth +10, Nature +12, Athletics +14, Endurance +13, Acrobatics +10, Perception +12, Heal +12
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +4, Bluff +3, Diplomacy +3, Dungeoneering +7, History +4, Insight +7, Intimidate +3, Religion +4, Streetwise +3, Thievery +5
FEATS
Human: Lethal Hunter
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Bastard sword)
Level 2: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
Level 4: Student of Battle
Level 6: Armor Proficiency (Chainmail)
Level 8: Armor Proficiency (Scale)
POWERS
Ranger at-will 1: Hit and Run
Ranger at-will 1: Twin Strike
Bonus At-Will Power: Careful Attack
Ranger daily 1: Jaws of the Wolf
Ranger daily 5: Sudden Strike
Ranger encounter 1: Two-Fanged Strike
Ranger encounter 3: Disruptive Strike
Ranger encounter 7: Sweeping Whirlwind
Ranger utility 2: Unbalancing Parry
Ranger utility 6: Weave Through the Fray
ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Razor Scale Armor +2, Vicious Bastard sword +2, Frost Bastard sword +2, Cloak of Survival +2
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder

======
Varis PHB, level 8
Elf, Ranger
Build: Archer Ranger
Fighting Style: Archer Fighting Style
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 14, Dex 21, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 8.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 13, Dex 17, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 8.

AC: 24 Fort: 19 Reflex: 22 Will: 20
HP: 61 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 15
TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +15, Dungeoneering +13, Heal +13, Perception +15, Stealth +15, Religion +9
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +8, Arcana +4, Bluff +3, Diplomacy +3, Endurance +5, History +4, Insight +8, Intimidate +3, Streetwise +3, Thievery +8, Athletics +3
FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Focus (Bow)
Level 2: Lethal Hunter
Level 4: Initiate of the Faith
Level 6: Elven Precision
Level 8: Acolyte Power
POWERS
Ranger at-will 1: Nimble Strike
Ranger at-will 1: Twin Strike
Ranger daily 1: Split the Tree
Ranger daily 5: Splintering Shot
Ranger encounter 1: Two-Fanged Strike
Ranger encounter 3: Disruptive Strike
Ranger encounter 7: Claws of the Griffon
Ranger utility 2: Yield Ground (retrained to Shield of Faith at Acolyte Power)
Ranger utility 6: Weave Through the Fray
ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Elven Battle Hide Armor +2, Elven Cloak +2, Frost Longbow +2, Catstep Boots (heroic tier), Viper Belt (heroic tier), Climbing Claws (heroic tier)

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder

Callie PHB, level 8
Halfling, Rogue
Rogue Tactics: Artful Dodger
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 12, Dex 20, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 20.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 12, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 16.

AC: 23 Fort: 17 Reflex: 23 Will: 21
HP: 59 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 14
TRAINED SKILLS
Stealth +14, Thievery +17, Intimidate +14, Streetwise +14, Acrobatics +16, Bluff +14
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +4, Diplomacy +9, Dungeoneering +5, Endurance +5, Heal +5, History +4, Insight +5, Nature +5, Perception +5, Religion +4, Athletics +3
FEATS
Level 1: Backstabber
Level 2: Weapon Focus (Light Blade)
Level 4: Weapon Proficiency (Rapier)
Level 6: Nimble Blade
Level 8: Lost in the Crowd
POWERS
Rogue at-will 1: Sly Flourish
Rogue at-will 1: Deft Strike
Rogue daily 1: Blinding Barrage
Rogue daily 5: Clever Riposte
Rogue encounter 1: Positioning Strike
Rogue encounter 3: Bait and Switch
Rogue encounter 7: Cloud of Steel
Rogue utility 2: Fleeting Ghost
Rogue utility 6: Ignoble Escape
ITEMS
Cloak of Resistance +2, Adventurer's Kit, Burglar's Gloves (heroic tier), Magic Dagger +2, Duelist's Rapier +2, Bloodcut Leather Armor +2
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder

[AllisterH]

Originally Posted by Pickles JG

I think good contrelled conditions are the PHB for PCs & anything for monsters as we are not testing them. that said given the MM2 solo revision I would be inclined to stick with those more than MM1 ones.
Similarly the DMG rules for templates often give huge defence boosts, which are not really needed = more offence is. I think there are enough monsters to go round on DDI without templates or homebrew.

I agree with using MM2 monsters especially the solos since MM2 seem were WOTC has more interesting critters than before..

Note: Savage Berserker template does increase damage though...

For encounters, just following the suggestions in the DMG for encounter types or do we want pure random ones?

[Herschel]

The other question is: Should multiclassing be allowed? Is that "watering down" the strikers and fudging the results? I'd still say okay.

[Herschel]

Originally Posted by keterys

His table was randomly thrown together for a mod that demands high performance, where balanced parties were complaining of being unable to compete.

I'm not really sure that it was all that useful.

I think it was just because it was a "test" that's already occured and he gave his account of it.

For one thing, if what he wrote was true (which is an assumption right off the bat, to be sure), he had a level of experience at the table you don't always get at a Con, especially a big one. I don't think too many parties aren't random, although a few people sign up together so at least part of the party may know each other.

He also wrote that they were missing the abilities the other classes brought to the table. He did surmise that maybe they could have done a little better had they at least multi-classed prior.

It's not a be-all/end-all or anything like that, but then this test likely won't be either because there's no basis to "judge" the consistency of play or DMing.

[AllisterH]

Here's an interesting question...

How do you choose monsters that aren't anti-striker? What I mean is, look at the Level 8 monsters available to us.

For example, the only consensus the the thread this one forked one was the assumption that strikers will do better versus Solos, soldiers and brutes.

Looking at the MM1 BRUTE monsters, there are 10 of them , including one elite but contrast those with the MM2 Brutes.

A human slaver with a black pudding seems distinctly like an anti-striker team yet those are the very first 2 brutes at level 8....whereas the cambion hellsword with a Barlgura demon is a run of the mill encounter...

(There doesn't seem to be many Brutes in the MM2 which are just HP + do damage)

[Dan'L]

Originally Posted by Mustrum_Ridcully

Criteria in order of "relevance":
1) Number of Encounters completed
2) Number of PC losses (e.g. need a Raise Dead Ritual. Dropped to 0 hp or less doesn't count,that "just" costs healing surges and powers.)
3) Number of Daily Class Powers expended
4) Number of Healing Surges expended
5) Number of Daily Magic Item uses expended
6) Number of Consumnable magic items or ritual components expended (to raise the dead and son on.)

Since part of the pro-all-striker argument it that they greatly shorten combat, I'd recommend adding:
7) Number of Rounds to complete each combat.

Instead of having just one adventuring day, one could allow the party to move at its own pace and see who finishes the encounters first and with how many resources left.

If you do that, track it for sure. A quicker individual combat means quite a bit less if you can handle only fewer combats in an in-game day.

Open to debate might be whether a raise dead ritual is allowed during the encounters.

My gut reaction is to not allow raise dead between encounters (since you can't really cast rituals during a combat.) A PC is perhaps THE greatest resource to an adventuring party, and a dead PC is that resource wasted. If you're going to allow it though, I would recommend only if the PCs start the experiment with a Ritual Caster who can perform it/from pre-existing ritual scrolls/with pre-inventoried ritual components.

-Dan'L

[Herschel]

Another matter to complicate things is outfitting with Magic Items at Level 8. Today we played Bald 1-3 UP w/ my Genasi Assault Swordmage 8, Wizard 7, Wizard 7 or 8, Warlord 7, Bard 8 IIRC. No striker, two wizards and our dice were stone cold in the first encounter (except when dominated) and not all that hot in the big finale.

I'm built for accuracy and defense. Sporting a 28 AC after shifting (and defenses buffed as much as possible @ 21, 21 19 Fort/Reflex/Will) and Resistances out the wazoo (10 fire, cold, 5 Thunder, Poison and Necrotic) I was actually missed some under normal DM dice (except spending half the opening encounter dominated) AND my resists nullified well over 100 points of damage even when we weren't hitting very well we were able to pull through.

[Abisashi]

Playing with only four characters means less monsters, which will comparitvely hurt the controller.

[AllisterH]

Originally Posted by Abisashi

Playing with only four characters means less monsters, which will comparitvely hurt the controller.

Depends on the encounter though...There's nothing in the OP that states we can't put the parties up against more powerful encounters where instead of having one singluar Solo monster, we instead use 4 regular over levelled monsters.

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by Dan'L

Since part of the pro-all-striker argument it that they greatly shorten combat, I'd recommend adding:
7) Number of Rounds to complete each combat.

The length of combat is not relevant for power. But it is something that is very interesting for gameplay, so if it's not used to evaluate the power, it should at least be tracked.


Though... even that might not tell us all that much. The length of each round, the overall play time and the time where "nothing happened except chipping away some hit points" might be more interesting, but even harder to account for.

[Nifft]

All Striker Frontline:
- Hexhammer (Infernal Warlock / Fighter -> Iron Vanguard): more durable than most Defenders.
- TWF Ranger / Cleric -> Warpriest (in heavy armor, with HBO): hits like a Striker, marks like a Defender; durable 1/day with Divine Power. Oh, he heals too.

Midrange:
- Brutal Rogue: normal melee Rogue who can wear Hide armor.
- Draconic Sorcerer: Burning Spray + White Lotus feats = yeah, bugger off. Throw in Acid Orb + Reaper's Touch and you've covered a lot of bases.

Optional:
- Elf Archer (Hybrid Ranger | Cleric): it's not like Archery Rangers actually have any good class features...
- Barbarian: my experience with these guys is that they really like having a full-on Leader in the party. However, a hybrid Str+Cha Barb | Cleric could be excellent, taking Str-powers which heal and key their secondary benefits off of Charisma. Same deal with a hybrid Str+Cha Barb | Warlord.

Cheers, -- N

[AllisterH]

Originally Posted by Nifft

All Striker Frontline:
- Hexhammer (Infernal Warlock / Fighter -> Iron Vanguard): more durable than most Defenders.
- TWF Ranger / Cleric -> Warpriest (in heavy armor, with HBO): hits like a Striker, marks like a Defender; durable 1/day with Divine Power. Oh, he heals too.

Midrange:
- Brutal Rogue: normal melee Rogue who can wear Hide armor.
- Draconic Sorcerer: Burning Spray + White Lotus feats = yeah, bugger off. Throw in Acid Orb + Reaper's Touch and you've covered a lot of bases.

Optional:
- Elf Archer (Hybrid Ranger | Cleric): it's not like Archery Rangers actually have any good class features...
- Barbarian: my experience with these guys is that they really like having a full-on Leader in the party. However, a hybrid Str+Cha Barb | Cleric could be excellent, taking Str-powers which heal and key their secondary benefits off of Charisma. Same deal with a hybrid Str+Cha Barb | Warlord.

Cheers, -- N

Hmm? I thought we agreed on only single-class examples...Using multiclass and hybrid characters doesn't show the power of the striker role by itself...or any role for that matter..

[keterys]

I'm pretty sure the plan was for all of the strikers to be multiclassed (particularly into healing multiclasses), proving that the striker model with just a tiny bit of the other was more than sufficient?

[Nifft]

Originally Posted by AllisterH

Hmm? I thought we agreed on only single-class examples...Using multiclass and hybrid characters doesn't show the power of the striker role by itself...or any role for that matter..

Perhaps you missed the first post in this thread. Just so you don't let this important information pass you buy again, I'll repeat it here:

Originally Posted by Pickles JG

(...) They should MC into some leader powers - anyone that was planning to play as a striker force would do this though (& my actual ranger did too) only 1 or 2 need do a utility swap any others can get by witha free daily heal. (...)

Cheers, -- N

[AllisterH]

Originally Posted by keterys

I'm pretty sure the plan was for all of the strikers to be multiclassed (particularly into healing multiclasses), proving that the striker model with just a tiny bit of the other was more than sufficient?

So would it be fair then that any defender or leader class add in a little bit of striker then?

[Nifft]

Originally Posted by AllisterH

So would it be fair then that any defender or leader class add in a little bit of striker then?

Fighters are Defenders who add a bit of Striker.

Leaders can buff a non-Striker up to Striker damage.

Does that answer your question?

Cheers, -- N

[Sadrik]

Originally Posted by AllisterH

So would it be fair then that any defender or leader class add in a little bit of striker then?

No, their bases are covered, why would they need to take striker powers when they already have a striker in the party. I think the argument goes that strikers do not add that much, so specifically loading up the mixed team with striker powers flies contrary to what this test is trying to do.