Unconscious Ranger - What does the Beast do?

[Zoombaba]

I got mixed answers at RPGnet, thought I'd try the more rigorous EnWorld (next stop, Wizards forums).

So ... we just finished a session last tonight. The ranger just re-built her character as a beastmaster. She has a cat.

Couple of questions came up.

1) She fell unconscious and was near death. As I understand it, the beast is suppose to remain adjacent to its master. It can attack, move, etc, as long as it remains adjacent. That's how I ruled it. Does that sound right?

2) How high can a panther vertically jump according to the rules? I ruled that the panther couldn't attack some spiders located on a 15 foot ceiling. That seems reasonable to me.

Thanks in advance!

[Mort_Q]

1) Sounds about right... it is stated specifically in the PH2 MP, but I don't have it handy.

2) Officially, panthers don't have reach... so... that's correct. Realistically... I'm sure a panther could easily jump 15 feet.

[Griogre]

Page 182 in the PH deals with jumping. Of particular importance is whether the cat can get a running start which if you rule the cat has to strictly stay within 2 spaces of the down PC it can't. However very important is that you get to add the cats height plus 1/3 to it's jump hight for reach purposes. I don't know how big that panther is or what ever was on the ceiling or what the althletics check is of the cat, but if that panther could get up 5 feet or so to 10' high and that's a medium creature on the ceiling it could probably hit. Without a running start unless that is a very large panther it probably has a chance just not a very good one.

[fissionessence]

As far as I know, though, there are no rules for a 'jumping attack' that the cat could perform. There might be powers that recreate that situation, but if there panther doesn't have said powers, it's out of luck.

The only thing I could think of is to ready an attack for when you're mid-height in a jump, but you can't take readied actions on your own turn or set up triggers that involve your own actions (IMO).

~

[Tremorsense]

Originally Posted by Zoombaba

1) She fell unconscious and was near death. As I understand it, the beast is suppose to remain adjacent to its master. It can attack, move, etc, as long as it remains adjacent. That's how I ruled it. Does that sound right?

I read page 142 of Martial Power (Beast Companion Independent Actions) to state that once the beast has come to be adjacent to you, it can then go around the battlefield wherever it wants. But I can see how your interpretation would fit as well. I think that for the benefit of the player the beast should be able to leave it's side, otherwise it's just a target that can't fight back.

[Zoombaba]

You know that's kind of how I saw it at the time: no leaping power. At the time I was running Deathjump Spiders who have "Death from Above" -- shift 6 squares and knock target prone. I thought the cat should have a similar detail if the cat could do it.

But now that I think about it, that's probably not a good way to run the game. Not every type of attack needs to be codified by an attack power. It probably stifles creativity.

I think the other thing that was bothering me, the player was trying to use panther as "super-power," this new widget that would be capable of solving all the party's problems. At the time I was a bit annoyed. Ranger: "My cat should be able to do this, this and this!" Me: "Um, no, no and no." I think by that time I was just trying to find excuses and get the player off my back, and nerf them a bit, instead of making a fair ruling.

Don't get me wrong -- I think the ranger beastmaster build was pretty cool and kick-ass, but the player seemed to be trying to get so much more out of the build then seemed reasonable.

[fissionessence]

Well I think if you wanted to let the panther do a jumping attack, just make sure it's not as powerful as as a special power that allows that option. For example, let the panther make an Athletics check to jump, using the standing high jump rules, and if it can reach the spider it wants to attack, then it takes a -5 penalty for being mid-jump.

I have five cats, and they leap around trying to catch bugs, so I know this technique is possible to attempt . . . but I also know it's not generally successful.

~ fissionessence

[Infiniti2000]

A -5 is equivalent to being blind. I think -2 should be used, if a penalty is used at all. I would allow the jump-attack, too, btw. But, using the rules.

[fissionessence]

If you only do -2, I'd give the guys opportunity attacks.

~

[On Puget Sound]

Can't a jump be part of a charge? If the ceiling is 15' up, then the cat is moving the required 2 squares (vertically) to charge. This particular charge woud require a successful jump check, and would also be followed by a 10' fall (or acrobatics check to reduce the fall damage). I doubt the cat can make a 10' vertical jump check without a running start, but that's the way I would call it.

[Zoombaba]

Although I do appreciate the jump advice, I was hoping this thread focus more on the other issue -- the ranger's down, must the cat remain adjacent to the ranger or not?

After 24 hours of thinking it over, I'm pretty firmly in the camp of, yes, the cat must remain by the ranger's side. Since other characters don't get extra attacks when down (and it still leaves the beast able to defend the ranger when the ranger is unconscious).

I'm not sure anyone quite knows, though.

[fissionessence]

That's also the way I read it. The pet doesn't come to 'check on' its master then run away again; it stays nearby (read: adjacent) to defend the ranger. If it were the lone survivor being hailed by arrows from enemies, and thus unable to attack, it still can't leave its master's side to defend itself. Instead, it takes defensive action and begins dragging its unconscious master's body away from the fight.

~

[Old Gumphrey]

Sorry to pick on you, but your posts made me sad.

Originally Posted by fissionessence

As far as I know, though, there are no rules for a 'jumping attack' that the cat could perform. There might be powers that recreate that situation, but if there panther doesn't have said powers, it's out of luck.

The only thing I could think of is to ready an attack for when you're mid-height in a jump, but you can't take readied actions on your own turn or set up triggers that involve your own actions (IMO).

~

Meh, way to kill creativity in an RPG. =( "You can't jump and attack because you don't have a power that says you can"...yet across 3 editions of D&D and 50+ gaming groups I've been seeing people perform leaping attacks left and right, using various ad-hoc rules which are an integral part of the system. You don't frigging NEED rules for a jump attack because it's so easy. You use your move action to jump, and however high you get, you can swing at the top with a basic attack. Problem solved, without contrived conditions and ridiculous penalties. Or you can charge and jump during the charge...if you're taking a move action, you can jump. That's it. There's no reason to assign penalties to it, because you're not gaining any kind of advantage that isn't already accounted for in the rules for skills and, specifically, Athletics.

Originally Posted by fissionessence

I have five cats, and they leap around trying to catch bugs, so I know this technique is possible to attempt . . . but I also know it's not generally successful.

~ fissionessence

That's because a) they are playing and b) instead of "attacking in combat" they are, literally, trying to capture a highly mobile insect in one hand, or in their mouth. I'd l ike to think it's generally unsuccessful because they're trying to be stuntmen and grab bugs out of a midair backflip and not because your cats are just inaccurate. Felines are absolutely born for mid-air attacks.

Go watch big cats on youtube or something. I watched this one where a tiger flew out of some tall grass and jumped up like 20 feet onto the back of a MOVING ELEPHANT to grab a guy sitting up there. The ONLY REASON the guy didn't become a snack is because the elephant smelled tigers and bolted at the last possible second (and also his friends shouting and trying to drag him backward) thus moving the man out of harm's way. That guy was DEAD MEAT, he looked like a deer in the headlights.

So...if that was a spider on a ceiling and not some dude on an elephant, it'd be game over spider.

[rainsinger]

If I were DM in this situation (the ranger part) personally I would rule based on the last command(s) given to the Beast before the ranger went down.

If...

:: The ranger had last told the pet to attack a specific target -- I'd have the beast continue to attack that target (though obviously only with it's basic attack).

:: The ranger had last had the beast at its side while s/he was attacking -- I'd have the beast at it's side defending the ranger while down.

...and so on. I think there's room for some common sense to override basic rules in almost every situation, that's part of being a GM, IMO.

[fissionessence]

Originally Posted by Old Gumphrey

Sorry to pick on you, but your posts made me sad.

Perhaps I was being too harsh, but regardless of what is realistic, impromptu attack tactics should be at least slightly worse than powers that players and monsters can get. If they're not, then there's no reason to select those powers as you can just 'do it anyway'.

I'd be willing to listen to a player's argument that they should be able to jump straight up to 'charge', though I don't think it really fits the definition. If I were to accept it, though, I'd also give the enemy the opportunity attack; there's no getting around the fact that the player (or panther pet) would be 'leaving a threatened square' as he or she or it fell back down.

I'll definitely retract my first post, though, about being 'out of luck'. Even if it means harsh penalties, player should have the option of being creative and trying new things.

~

[Amphimir Míriel]

Originally Posted by fissionessence

Perhaps I was being too harsh, but regardless of what is realistic, impromptu attack tactics should be at least slightly worse than powers that players and monsters can get. If they're not, then there's no reason to select those powers as you can just 'do it anyway'.

Up to here, agreed

Originally Posted by fissionessence

I'd be willing to listen to a player's argument that they should be able to jump straight up to 'charge', though I don't think it really fits the definition. If I were to accept it, though, I'd also give the enemy the opportunity attack; there's no getting around the fact that the player (or panther pet) would be 'leaving a threatened square' as he or she or it fell back down.

Here we disagree... I think that the fact that the panther has to make a jump check in order to see if she gets to do a charge attack is enough penalty. After all, we DMs need to reward creative thinking (Rule of Cool and all that)

[am181d]

Doesn't Martial Power say the beast stays at its master's side, but it can continue to attach as normal?

(Also, the world needs more jump attacks, not less.)

[fissionessence]

Originally Posted by Amphimir Míriel

Here we disagree... I think that the fact that the panther has to make a jump check in order to see if she gets to do a charge attack is enough penalty. After all, we DMs need to reward creative thinking (Rule of Cool and all that)

I think allowing a jumping charge is reward enough; I really don't think that's an intended function of the charge mechanic. I don't see any reason to ignore the 'leaving a threatened square' rule.

But at that point I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

~

[Nifft]

Originally Posted by Zoombaba

1) She fell unconscious and was near death. As I understand it, the beast is suppose to remain adjacent to its master. It can attack, move, etc, as long as it remains adjacent. That's how I ruled it. Does that sound right?

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Zoombaba

2) How high can a panther vertically jump according to the rules? I ruled that the panther couldn't attack some spiders located on a 15 foot ceiling. That seems reasonable to me.

There are rules for jumping, and cats should jump well, but I'd say that 15 ft. in the air is not "adjacent to its master".

Cheers, -- N

[TheFindus]

As a DM, I would allow the following:
The cat has to stay near the ranger, but can attack opponents. Since the cat is considered a party member and the player of the ranger has nothing much to do, it would probably be fun for him/her to play the cat while trying to get his/her character back to some hp.
The other players would probably also like the cat to fight, regardless of whether they would be able to do anything if their characters were down (I am assuming not everybody is a beastmaster and has a pet). So I do not see any unfairness here.

Now, since the cat can attack and the spiders on the ceiling are the opponents, I would let the cat be able to perform a limited stunt and use the miracle page 42 in the DMG for this. Limited damage and something with a jump check or climb if one of the spiders is near a wall (I do not have the DMG with me).
But I think that would work in my group. And it sounds like fun.