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Is that a house rule, and if not whats the source?
It's a fallback to the fact that the DM can do anything. It's not stated in the MM that they have extra powers outside of combat, it's merely the mantra that's been adopted in response to the fact that many of the more interesting monsters have had a lot of detail removed from their write ups in the new edition.
So basically people complained that monsters in 4E are cardboard cutouts, and the response was "well it's up to the DM to do all the work of actually giving them abilities." It's not explicity stated, it's just something that a DM will need to do because there are gapeing holes in the material.
For instance Vecna doesn't have access to wizard spells in or out of combat, which, given his background, is ridiculous. Instead he's nowhere near as good as an archmage should be, heck, an apprentice casts magic missle better, he just has some weird abilities and a sack of HPs far greater than a player's instead.
If, as a DM, you want a Vecna that doesn't feel like a cardboard cutout, you have a lot of work ahead of you. "For a being of godly intelligence and power, Vecna’s tactics are fairly simple."
Has anyone asked for a clarification on the Magic Circle vs. Teleport issue? It keeps coming up.
But I think the weakness of Magic Circle comes down to the ease of obscuring the runes. And while it's not clear what counts as "affecting" creatures through the circle, I think a reasonable rule is that stuff that doesn't interfere with a creature's free will is OK. So Orcus could still talk to people through the circle, offering them immortality if they'll just scuff it for a moment...
Even if you don't allow that much, it's hard for me to imagine large (town-sized) circles as lasting long enough to be worth the effort. Any idiot can come along and ruin the thing in seconds.
I cant believe I said Orcus before, Tarrasque is a much more reasonable problematic adversary against this spell.
What I mean is, very few people will be jerks enough to screw up a magic circle surrounding a small town to protect against the Tarrasque.
Tarrasque knows no language so it cant ask for help. No teleport ability. And all you need is a wizard of paragon level and a few helpers. Maybe a ritual candle...
I cant believe I said Orcus before, Tarrasque is a much more reasonable problematic adversary against this spell.
What I mean is, very few people will be jerks enough to screw up a magic circle surrounding a small town to protect against the Tarrasque.
Tarrasque knows no language so it cant ask for help. No teleport ability. And all you need is a wizard of paragon level and a few helpers. Maybe a ritual candle...
Its just stupidly powerful I think
If your DM introduces a tarrasque into the campaign, one would hope that he goes the extra mile to reflect societies response to it.
Tarrasque cultists, villains manipulating it, other creatures of the same origin wanting to live in the city (or mess with the city) etc etc.
The magic circle might repel the first assault, but it's going to take some effort to keep it up.
(incidentally: a wasteland with numerous tarrasques and every city and encampment hiding under a magic circle bubble is a brilliant points of light setting, even if it's just for a certain season every year/decade/whatnot).
But I think the weakness of Magic Circle comes down to the ease of obscuring the runes. And while it's not clear what counts as "affecting" creatures through the circle, I think a reasonable rule is that stuff that doesn't interfere with a creature's free will is OK. So Orcus could still talk to people through the circle, offering them immortality if they'll just scuff it for a moment...
The Spiderwick Chronicles had a good example of a magic circle in it! Saddly, no tarrasques.
What I mean is, very few people will be jerks enough to screw up a magic circle surrounding a small town
This strikes me as a straw man argument. Of course the world abounds with said "jerks"; whom else is one fighting while adventuring.
Duergar, Drow, Mind Flayers, things that live in the Feywild, things that live in the Shadowfell, things that live in the Abyss, things that live in the Elemental Chaos, Underground Dwarven Kingdoms at war with surface lands, insane cultist of Entropy, people beliving in the Great Hunt of them all so on and so forth....pretty much most of the MM1 and MM2.
Also as rituals are bit vague by design.....it would not be unreasonable for some to use a ritual like say Control Weather to create a downpour that would wash away any chalk made circles.
If your DM introduces a tarrasque into the campaign, one would hope that he goes the extra mile to reflect societies response to it.
Tarrasque cultists, villains manipulating it, other creatures of the same origin wanting to live in the city (or mess with the city) etc etc.
The magic circle might repel the first assault, but it's going to take some effort to keep it up.
(incidentally: a wasteland with numerous tarrasques and every city and encampment hiding under a magic circle bubble is a brilliant points of light setting, even if it's just for a certain season every year/decade/whatnot).
I can see it now:
At the entrance of a large city an army of cultists face the gathering crowd, the Tarrasque sleeping on a colossal wagon with some of the cultists surrounding it and chanting
High level Tarrasque priest:"In a matter of moments, the tarrasque will awaken and DESTROY YOU ALL!"
-another cultist comes up to the priest and mumbles something in his ear.
Priest:"DAMMIT!"
-priest looks around
Priest: "Jim, go over there and scuff those runes for me"
-low level cultist runs amusingly towards the runes surrounding the city and kicks them as though destroying a small sandcastle. Then turns around and gives the Priest a thumbs-up
This strikes me as a straw man argument. Of course the world abounds with said "jerks"; whom else is one fighting while adventuring.
Duergar, Drow, Mind Flayers, things that live in the Feywild, things that live in the Shadowfell, things that live in the Abyss, things that live in the Elemental Chaos, Underground Dwarven Kingdoms at war with surface lands, insane cultist of Entropy, people beliving in the Great Hunt of them all so on and so forth....pretty much most of the MM1 and MM2.
Also as rituals are bit vague by design.....it would not be unreasonable for some to use a ritual like say Control Weather to create a downpour that would wash away any chalk made circles.
yes sure there are jerks
But thats almost irrelevant. One of the most physically destructive forcees in the know universe can be physically stopped by a low level ritual, end of story. That in and of itself is ridiculous imo.
But thats almost irrelevant. One of the most physically destructive forcees in the know universe can be physically stopped by a low level ritual, end of story. That in and of itself is ridiculous imo.
I do not want this to come off as too harsh, or bearing any sort of malice or animosity, (this post has none)...but Flip what you have is a personal problem.
You find some bit of flavor personally incongruous and it offends you...but alas this comes down to just taste, and is a singular phenomenon.
I myself find nothing wrong with an embodiment of Physical Destruction, being impeded by an Extra Physical, supernatural force like magic.
Honestly Magic Circle gives a pretty compelling game set up for say a 12th level encounter with the Tarrasque. Something, someone, has awoken the big bad toothy monster and it is coming to eat the town. The heroes of course can not defeat the Tarrasque....but they have just enough time to try to create a Magic Circle to save as many of the townspeople, as they can (like 2 hours).
Sophie's Choice meets Shindler's List, (the Circle is life), and a great cinematic scene of the lucky few wailing and watching in disbelief as the great physical engine of destruction lays waste to all around them, except for one small circle of calm. I'd pay $8 to watch that movie !
Let us also face that the Tarrasque and Orcus are not going to appear on any wandering monster table of 4e.....Paragon level encounter with 30 level creatures, really should not have battle as normal on the agenda, as TPK will be the only result.
Unique monsters are plot devices, and thus the rules, (even limiting rules ), allow for some great inspiration on uses of those plot devices.
Last edited by satori01; 10th June 2009 at 03:07 AM..
Is that a house rule, and if not whats the source?
It's implied, but never stated that I could find. However, I think the designers explicitly said that was their intent (though I also can't confirm this).
In general, its impractical for the rules to cover every eventuality, though personally I wish a little more complexity had gone into the design of rituals like this one, with hard level cut-offs in their power.
I think a big part of the problem is that the ritual can last forever. There are alot of rituals now with permanent effects and there is no way to dispel them. They need to add a ritual that can dispel other rituals.
I myself find nothing wrong with an embodiment of Physical Destruction, being impeded by an Extra Physical, supernatural force like magic.
Neither do I, when the power of the magic can be sensibly more powerful than the physical attacker (thus a wall made out of "normal" magic can be about as strong as 3 ft stone walls normally are.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by satori01
Honestly Magic Circle gives a pretty compelling game set up for say a 12th level encounter with the Tarrasque.
Any 12th lvl group with a ritual caster = most likely not a tpk (considering its colossal and makes a lot of noise you could probably make a magic circle before it notices you)
Any 12th lvl group without a ritual caster = most likely tpk
Quote:
Originally Posted by satori01
Let us also face that the Tarrasque and Orcus are not going to appear on any wandering monster table of 4e.....Paragon level encounter with 30 level creatures, really should not have battle as normal on the agenda, as TPK will be the only result.
Except when you have a Ritual caster.
And Im sorry but this is not a personal problem. The idea of a 12th level party meeting an awake tarrasque on thier own has always, since the introduction of the monster meant tpk. Now a simple ritual can remove the threat entirely?
Since the duration is "Until Broken" I'd rule that water like rain or some just splashing on the ground from a jug wouldn't. If it did it would prevent a lot of traditional fantasy uses of this type of magic. I'd also rule that anything directly thrown or launched from a qualifying type cannot effect it.
Quote:
Neither do I, when the power of the magic can be sensibly more powerful than the physical attacker (thus a wall made out of "normal" magic can be about as strong as 3 ft stone walls normally are.)
It takes 1 hour to put up the barrier. It's not as if this is something you can create in combat. It's just an additional tool for parties to use to solve problems and cause more interesting encounters.
If a low level party knows Orcus or the Tarrasque are coming an hour or more ahead of time they can evacuate or move whatever they're trying to protect, they could possibly mislead or redirect these enemies. It's not as if it could be used to defeat an enemy.
For this spell to realistically cover any sized town (lets say a square mile) it would take about 168 hours including the original hour casting time. Thats about a week. I'd say that'd be enough time to create other reasonable defenses without such an glaring flaw.
This ritual also gives a few excellent combat scenerio opportunities.
A party manages to put a circle of protection around the town, but the aberrant/elemental/fey/immortal/natural/shadow boss creatures have minions of a different type. You must fight off the minions as they try to run by in waves and not let any get through to break the circle while also protecting yourself from a few of the evil overlord boss types.
Enemies try to let out super-creature from magic circle prison. There's difficult terrain to get to it and there are multiple magic circles up so they have to take a standard action to remove each one. You must fight them off before they get through.
Last edited by FrozenChrono; 10th June 2009 at 07:40 AM..
I fully understand the limitations and possible interpretations of the ritual. But just because it can be an effective story telling tool does not change the fact that it is way more powerful raw than any spell or exploit.
The mere fact that it can end or prevent without fail, an encounter with a monster more than double your level. And that any monster that isnt a surprise and doesn't have any friends that aren't different of a different origin can be effectively made useless by this spell.
Yes it has limitations. I get that. But:
A level 8 spell should not be able to prevent a tarrasque from entering an area. End o' story in my book. It should absoloutley have a limiting factor that would make a tarrasque be able to destroy it eventually or with great force or with great damage to itself. Total prevention is just too much imo.
I would say that it takes a conscious act by an intelligent creature to break a Circle.
It's power is somewhat limited by the fact that you're eventually going to have to leave the circle, or you'd better have an Everlasting Provisions along. There's not a whole lot of fun to be had when adventuring as "The Boy in the Plastic Bubble."
However, I think the designers explicitly said that was their intent (though I also can't confirm this).
There was discussion about this around the time the pit fiend was shown in the Ampersand article (1/25/08). I am not up on my enworld dues so can't search well... but I think those are the threads you should be looking for. The comments went along the lines that any intelligent NPC has access to any ritual of its level or lower that they need so they can do whatever the DM needs them to do.
As for tarrasque, I think it shows how well this spell works just the way it is. The spell does NOT stop the beast. In no meaningful way does it affect the tarrasque from doing what it wants to do, destroying random things. Just because it is destroying the village next door does not mean it was ‘stopped’. Does it save a small village or temple or some other site from being immediately destroyed? Sure, but the tarrasque could care less. It will get back to it when the rest of the universe is fixed.
Some of you are giving the tarrasque motivations it simply does not have.
Some of you are giving the tarrasque motivations it simply does not have.
I was thinking that it might 'accidentally' do something that would ultimately effect the contents of the circle; start a landslide, forest fire, dam a river and flood an area...... Things that conscious will doesn't pertain to, that have a ripple effect.
Godzilla isn't crushing people. He knocks over buildings that just happen to have people under them.
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