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I just looked up and read the power description and I don't understand it. Could someone quickly explain how that power would yield 4 attacks against the target? (sorry if I'm being dense - I'm new to the edition)
Rain of Blows is 2-4 attacks. See here, and also the "Reading a power" section of PH-II (pg 219), which clarifies how to read indentation on powers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PH-II, page 219
Indentation: When information is indented in a power description, that means the information is contingent on the information directly above it. For example, a “Secondary Attack” entry indented below a “Hit” entry is a reminder that you can make the secondary attack only if you hit with the primary attack.
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I'm sorry but that is just blatantly unintended. In no way whatsoever was it intended for a 3rd lvl encounter power to allow for 4 attacks. That's madness and everyone knows it.
And Im not one to immediately jump to thinking I know what people intend, but its just too clear to ignore.
Last edited by Flipguarder; 11th June 2009 at 06:21 AM..
Reason: last line.
Here is a short list of encounter powers in 4e that I think need fixing.
#5 Unicorn’s Touch (Arcane Power, Swordmage Utility 6) – This power allows healing without using any healing surges. Surgeless healing isn’t supposed to be that common at these levels, and most healing powers like this at these levels usually only work while bloodied. In actual practice though, the effects are minimal. Being forced to rest due to a lack of healing surges is quite rare and the limitless healing is only able to be done outside of combat. So this power breaks the mechanics, but isn’t really all that broken in terms of character effectiveness, making it the last power on this list.
#4 Storm of Blades (PHB2, Barbarian Attack 13) – You get an attack for each point of your constitution. Barbarians (and the fighters/rangers that MC just to get this power) can afford to have at least an 18 Con by this level to easily get 4 attacks. Any power that allows you to attack the same target multiple times needs to be carefully examined, since the static bonuses you can stack for a single round of attacks can greatly magnify the base power. It is possible to kill a single monster in one round with this power, and it’s better than many of the other encounter powers even up to epic levels.
#3 Righteous Rage of Tempus (PGtF, Channel Divinity Feat) – A minor action to auto crit on your next hit? Seriously, what were they thinking? Compare this to any other feat and you can see the discrepancy in power. If there is a feat that says, “if you hit with your next attack, add 30 points of damage”, it would never be approved, which makes me wonder how this one got through R&D. Whole builds have been created to take advantage of this feat, involving Paladins, Clerics, and Avengers wielding high-crit weapons.
#2 Guileful Switch (Martial Power, Warlord Utility 6) – As a minor action, you switch initiatives with an ally, netting the party an extra set of actions. As a daily power, this would still be good. I’ve seen people MC into the warlord class just to get this power, which immediately rings warning bells in my head. Directing the movement of allies is one of the warlord’s shticks. Now it seems they can manipulate time as well as space. One step closer to becoming a Q I suppose.
#1 Rain of Blows (PHB, Fighter Attack 3) – A potential 4 attacks against a single target and we encounter the same problems as Storm of Blades. Except that this time, it’s a 3rd level power! This is as good as some epic level encounter powers that the Fighter has in terms of dealing damage. Static bonuses can stack to ridiculous amounts, often dwarfing the weapon die, and multiple attacks against the same target exacerbates the discrepancy. If an epic level fighter needs to think twice about replacing a power he got when he was 3rd level, then that power definitely needs to be looked at for balance issues.
What’s in your list of encounter powers that you think need fixing?
#5 Unicorn's Touch. A small amount of healing. If that's unbalancing you're doing something wrong. Some characters have upwards of 15 healing surges anyway, and with a little gold can get more bang from a potion. Potent but not broken.
#4 a level 13 power giving 4 (or more) is possibly broken, but I would not count buffs from other powers by other characters as breaking it. That's like saying a power is 'broken' when used with a powerful implement or weapon. It depends on all those attacks chance to hit, and the character having pumped a lot of ability points into one thing, the right 'one thing'. I lean towards disagreeing on this too, but I see the potential. Look at hurricane of blades (barbarian 27) 6 attacks 1(w) but consider with two weapon fighting and the possibilities of crit on 19-20 or with a vicious weapon, or a rogue dagger master who multi-classed to get it, and two weapon fights with vicious daggers criting on 18-20. definitely broken, but it took a lot of levels and very specific development choices to get there. Just in time to fight the terrasque.
#3 righteous rage. read the power again, it is not an auto crit. It works 'on your next attack, if it hits, before the end of your next turn' If you're very next attack doesn't hit, you are out of luck, (even if you use rain of blows), and have spent a feat, a minor, your attack power, and your channel divinity for that encounter. It is awesome if it works, but it's not a sure thing. Granted the player will pick his shot for when he's sure he'll hit, but still, once invoked, he has until the end of his next turn. Awesome damage power, but not broken even for a striker.
#2 If I am understanding guileful switch, the intent was for the warlord to be able to move up or to give an ally a more advantageous place in the initiative order, not to turn back time to the beginning of the round. If it were, that would definately be broken, as it doesn't just improve your initiative but effectively gives potentailly everyone another whole turn. If this is really what it looks like, then time for an erata answer.
#1 rain of blows This one we have used in play. look at #4 to some extent. it's melee, and those multiple attacks have to hit to have effect. If you are DMing, and the 3rd level fighter is consistently hitting with all four, or more attacks using this power, than you need to through some higher AC foes into the opponents, or now and again have a foe with consiquences for hitting in melee. potentially broken granted, but there are readily available counters for at least some of the damage, even with 3rd level foes.
Bottom line, you live by the cheese, you die by it. When I see a player start to abuse RAW showing something to be broken, I change the context, not the rule. rogue stunning everybody? grey slaad stuns him instead at least in one battle. fighter meet the savage berserker, meet the feyborn medusa, or better, meet the monster with the broken power you demonstrated your rules lawyeriness with last time we played.
Last edited by shadowoflameth; 11th June 2009 at 07:14 AM..
#5 Unicorn's Touch. A small amount of healing. If that's unbalancing you're doing something wrong. Some characters have upwards of 15 healing surges anyway, and with a little gold can get more bang from a potion. Potent but not broken.
What you're missing in this regard is that it can be used out of combat. So, take an hour and heal the whole party without spending surges. Use the power 12 times interspersed with 12 short rests. This is not in-your-face broken like storm of blades but it subverts the entire point of having healing surges which is to provide an expendable resource other than daily powers that is used from combat to combat so that PCs cannot go on forever and so that they can be worn down by successive encounters.
Without the healing surge mechanic, daily powers are the PCs' only consumable resource and PCs can pretty much adventure forever without needing an extended rest.
While some PCs may have 15 healing surges, a lot of PCs only have six or seven. That's a big deal.
#5 Unicorn's Touch. A small amount of healing. If that's unbalancing you're doing something wrong. Some characters have upwards of 15 healing surges anyway, and with a little gold can get more bang from a potion. Potent but not broken.
It breaks the mechanics of surges and healing, but you're right, in actual combat it is not that big a deal which is why it's at #5.
But surgeless healing isn't supposed to come that easily at this tier. At most that power should only return healing on bloodied targets.
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I'm sorry but that is just blatantly unintended. In no way whatsoever was it intended for a 3rd lvl encounter power to allow for 4 attacks. That's madness and everyone knows it.
And Im not one to immediately jump to thinking I know what people intend, but its just too clear to ignore.
Unfortunately one of the designers spoke up on these boards some months ago and said that the 4 attacks interpretation is the correct one. Even Customer Service now answers fairly consistently that the 4 attacks interpretation is the right one.
Prior to that, I was allowing it three attacks at most, since the indent could also be a weapon qualifier rather than a qualifier on a hit, but even that interpretation was still too good for a 3rd level power in my opinion.
Your incredulity that a 3rd level power should allow 4 attacks is part of the reason why I think this is very, very broken and need fixing. I've seen a fighter kill an elite in one round with this power, an action point and a Warlord in the party.
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Can't agree with Unicorn's touch on this list. Yes it breaks a basic tenet of 4e, but its effect isn't that effective. I rarely have players run out of surges. I'm sure there is a far worse power we can put on the list.
As for Guileful Switch... it is a level 6 utility power that gives an entire extra turn to the user every single combat. I don't see any other power at that level that really can compare. Honestly, I think you'd have to look deep into Epic - and I'd be doubtful of finding something even then.
While there are some very clever (and very complex) things you can pull off if multiple characters have guileful switch, it actually has some negative synergy with a lot of warlord powers. Most warlord powers give an ally or all allies a bonus until the start or end of your next turn. If you guileful switch, you can give one ally that bonus early, but unless that ally went right before you, you are likely to deprive other allies in the party of a global benefit.
But if you want warlord powers that give an action economy advantage similar to guileful switch, there is such a warlord power at every level except for 3. No need to even go past heroic (though if you do go to epic, you have an encounter attack that gives your ally a standard action with your Int bonus (tactical) to hit which blows guileful switch out of the water as soon as you get epic encounter powers).
Wld 1: Hammer and anvil. Give an ally a basic attack with +your cha to damage.
Wld 7: Surprise attack. Give an ally a basic attack with combat advantage and +your Int (tactical) to hit.
Wld 13: Pincer manuever. You give up your action but two of your allies get to move and make an attack with a bonus to hit and damage.
Wld 17: Hail of steel. Everyone in your party (within 5 squares) makes a basic attack against the target.
Wld 23: Sudden assault. Low damage, but an ally makes a standard action with your int bonus to attack (tactical)
Wld 27: Warlord's indignation. Immediate reaction gives all of your allies within 5 squares a basic attack (and you swing too).
If you take a broader view of the action economy advantage, shake it off (Wld 2, minor action--an ally makes a save with +cha as a bonus, inspiring reaction (immediate reaction, ally spends a surge+cha), and rousing words (minor, ally spends two surges+cha (inspiring)) are all likely to yield a greater action economy advantage, though they will only do so in certain situations. So they don't come up every combat, but when they do, they are often more useful.
Guileful switch is a very good encounter power, but, contrary to the suggestion above, it doesn't compare to higher level daily powers. Instant planning, for instance, gives you and all your allies +Cha to hit until the end of your next turn. (It's focused action economy advantage in a can and is far more conducive to novas than guileful switch is). Given the choice between that and guileful switch, it would be pretty easy to toss guileful switch into the trashbin.
Unfortunately one of the designers spoke up on these boards some months ago and said that the 4 attacks interpretation is the correct one. Even Customer Service now answers fairly consistently that the 4 attacks interpretation is the right one.
Prior to that, I was allowing it three attacks at most, since the indent could also be a weapon qualifier rather than a qualifier on a hit, but even that interpretation was still too good for a 3rd level power in my opinion.
Your incredulity that a 3rd level power should allow 4 attacks is part of the reason why I think this is very, very broken and need fixing. I've seen a fighter kill an elite in one round with this power, an action point and a Warlord in the party.
To be honest I really don't care WHO says that's the intention, its not. It's a brokenly generous interpretation of a power that's not all that vague.
No power anywhere near that level provides as much damage. The reason I say its two attacks and not three is that ranger powers specifically state 1[W] per attack. Rain of blows does not leading me to believe that even if there are two "attacks" in the first one, it still only does 1[W] + Str Mod.
To be honest I really don't care WHO says that's the intention, its not.
Are you for real? The people who wrote the power are saying that it was their intention! Post #20 in this thread even has the link to the designer saying so!
To be honest I really don't care WHO says that's the intention, its not. .
So if the designer that wrote the power were to come on to the board an unequivocally state that 2-4 attacks WAS his intention....you would still deny that is the intention of the power?
One can argue the power is badly worded or formatted, one can argue the power is badly designed and too powerful, and will be banned or modified for your game. All of these are completely valid.
You must be capable of casting higher (De)illusion spells than I can, because I can not read a clarification of a power given by a WOTC designer and exclaim that the "intention is not the intention".
Calling the power as intended misguided,or stupid is fine. Stating the power as written does not live up to the intention and will be ran as written...fine. Denying what does not fit into your world view....scary...and not really helpful to the rest of us that want to discuss.
What you're missing in this regard is that it can be used out of combat. So, take an hour and heal the whole party without spending surges. Use the power 12 times interspersed with 12 short rests. This is not in-your-face broken like storm of blades but it subverts the entire point of having healing surges which is to provide an expendable resource other than daily powers that is used from combat to combat so that PCs cannot go on forever and so that they can be worn down by successive encounters.
Without the healing surge mechanic, daily powers are the PCs' only consumable resource and PCs can pretty much adventure forever without needing an extended rest.
While some PCs may have 15 healing surges, a lot of PCs only have six or seven. That's a big deal.
Granted, but it is an encounter power isn't it? I'm cought without Arcane Power in front of me, but if you are using it out of combat, you could do it once, then after a short rest do it again. If the party is doing the repeated short rest thing to overcome the healing/rest mechanic then the DM ought to have a consequence ready. It could be the bad guys cought up to you while you were fooling around or as simple as it starts raining and you begin to sink into the mud. It is impossible to find any rest here.
Granted, but it is an encounter power isn't it? I'm cought without Arcane Power in front of me, but if you are using it out of combat, you could do it once, then after a short rest do it again. If the party is doing the repeated short rest thing to overcome the healing/rest mechanic then the DM ought to have a consequence ready. It could be the bad guys cought up to you while you were fooling around or as simple as it starts raining and you begin to sink into the mud. It is impossible to find any rest here.
For this power,the simplest "ruling" would be - it doesn't work outside combat.
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For this power,the simplest "ruling" would be - it doesn't work outside combat.
When I started DM-ing 4E I was very tempted to apply such houserule to all encounter healing powers, just to avoid "we rest X minutes, so we can use inspiring word Y times" situations (or a similar rule allowing you to use only the inspiring words that remained after the encounter). In the end, I decided to let healing powers work as written, but I would've introduced the rule if there was an encounter healing power requiring no healing surges such as this one.
Bottom line, you live by the cheese, you die by it. When I see a player start to abuse RAW showing something to be broken, I change the context, not the rule. rogue stunning everybody? grey slaad stuns him instead at least in one battle. fighter meet the savage berserker, meet the feyborn medusa, or better, meet the monster with the broken power you demonstrated your rules lawyeriness with last time we played.
I'd rather make sure the powers play well with one another, and not be a vengeful DM.
When I started DM-ing 4E I was very tempted to apply such houserule to all encounter healing powers, just to avoid "we rest X minutes, so we can use inspiring word Y times" situations (or a similar rule allowing you to use only the inspiring words that remained after the encounter). In the end, I decided to let healing powers work as written, but I would've introduced the rule if there was an encounter healing power requiring no healing surges such as this one.
Yes, that is really the only issue - it's encounter and doesn't require a surge. It would be too powerful if it allowed the use of a surge in addition to the healing, it would be too weak if it cost a surge but only gave the listed healing, and it is too weak for a daily.
So, the easiest option is to just limit it to its used during combat.
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if you read it as 1 or two attacks it is a really bad encounter power if you don´t happen to have a dagger...
even if you use a spear and do two attacks, it is still lousy, because you have a bit more damage, but no other effect... 2 or 3 seems quite ok.
maybe the easiest fix would be multiplying static damage when you have 2w powers. this way, you have easily nerfed all multi hit powers and fix the problem of mosters having too many hps...
maybe the easiest fix would be multiplying static damage when you have 2w powers. this way, you have easily nerfed all multi hit powers and fix the problem of mosters having too many hps...
Alternatively, just have the secondary attacks of rain of blows deal Strength modifier damage. That means all the bonuses you normally get to damage rolls don't apply to the secondary attacks.
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