Bonus Damage Dice on Critical Hits...

[Pbartender]

Often a character will be allowed bonus dice of damage on a critical hit... from a high-crit weapon or from a magic weapon's properties or soemting similar.

This question is this: If a weapon attack deals either fixed damaged or no damage (the Warlord At-Wills Opening Shove and Furious Smash would be good examples), do these bonus dice get applied on a critical hit?

Give me your opinion, please. Details on Critical Hit rules can be found on PHB page 278.

[Nifft]

P.255, in the magic items rules section on critical hits:

"An attack that does not deal damage still does not deal damage on a critical hit."

Nothing about constant damage attacks, though, so I'd say those do benefit from the extra damage dice.

Cheers, -- N

[the Jester]

Agreed with Nifft.

[Pbartender]

Originally Posted by Nifft

P.255, in the magic items rules section on critical hits:

"An attack that does not deal damage still does not deal damage on a critical hit."

Nothing about constant damage attacks, though, so I'd say those do benefit from the extra damage dice.

Cheers, -- N

Alright.

That's pretty much what I was leaning toward...

But on p 278 the "does not deal damage" clause was listed under the "Maximum Damage" bullet point, but not the "Extra Damage" bullet point, which confused the issued a little. Based on that page, it's feasible that you could make a case that getting the extra damage on a non-damaging attack is not ruled out. Page 225, I think, clarifies the intent.

Thanks, guys.

[Nifft]

Originally Posted by Pbartender

Alright.

That's pretty much what I was leaning toward...

But on p 278 the "does not deal damage" clause was listed under the "Maximum Damage" bullet point, but not the "Extra Damage" bullet point, which confused the issued a little. Based on that page, it's feasible that you could make a case that getting the extra damage on a non-damaging attack is not ruled out. Page 225, I think, clarifies the intent.

Thanks, guys.

Yeah, and the niggling details get even worse when you think about weapons like Jagged which don't technically deal damage on a crit, they just impose "ongoing 10".

But I think the spirit of the rule is that non-damaging attacks don't do anything special on a crit.

Cheers, -- N

[Prestidigitalis]

What about extra, non-damage effects? I'm wondering if I would get the Barbarian Rampage effect if I hit on the free attack (knock prone on hit, but do no damage) granted by Thunder Hawk Rage.

Basically, I'm looking at a Barbarian build that would try to wrack up extra attacks, of whatever sort, in order to trigger additional Rampages. Not sure if that's the most *effective* Barb build, but it looks like fun.

[fba827]

Originally Posted by Pbartender

Alright.

That's pretty much what I was leaning toward...

But on p 278 the "does not deal damage" clause was listed under the "Maximum Damage" bullet point, but not the "Extra Damage" bullet point, which confused the issued a little. Based on that page, it's feasible that you could make a case that getting the extra damage on a non-damaging attack is not ruled out. Page 225, I think, clarifies the intent.

Thanks, guys.

While I don't have the book handy to reference, I have a strong recollection that in PHB2 there is a sidebar that talks about this. Specifically, it uses the example of getting a crit on a wizard sleep spell (an effect causing but nondamaging spell) and says that there is no crit damage bonus since there is no damage roll

But, for all i know i'm imagining it...

[Steve Jung]

Originally Posted by fba827

While I don't have the book handy to reference, I have a strong recollection that in PHB2 there is a sidebar that talks about this. Specifically, it uses the example of getting a crit on a wizard sleep spell (an effect causing but nondamaging spell) and says that there is no crit damage bonus since there is no damage roll

But, for all i know i'm imagining it...

Nope. I have it right here.

Originally Posted by PHB2

page 221
Extra Damage
Extra damage is always in addition to other damage. For example, if you have a feat that causes your area attacks to deal extra damage, the extra damage doesn't apply when you use an area attack that deals no damage, such as the wizard's sleep power.

[Jurph]

As a DM I would be willing to entertain a proposal that a crit on a non-damaging hit might do something other than add an extra die of damage. Bull Rush, for example, might allow the player an optional extra square of push (a really good push), and something that knocks the target prone might also tack on "dazed" (he got knocked over and hit his head). Your DM will probably want to rule on a case-by-case basis, and I'd have your DM sign off on any additional effects you want to house-rule into your high-crit build before combat begins. I don't think any amount of finagling is going to get you a roll of the damage dice for an attack that doesn't otherwise include a damage calculation.

I think the PHB sidebar is pretty clear that if a critical hit earns the player the right to have damage calculated, then it also earns the extra damage dice. I would even go so far as to say that if the damage calculation results in a zero (elemental damage that is resisted, for example) the very act of starting a damage calculation still earns the player the right to roll the extra dice.

[Hypersmurf]

Originally Posted by Jurph

As a DM I would be willing to entertain a proposal that a crit on a non-damaging hit might do something other than add an extra die of damage.

I had this come up in my game.

The Fighter was adjacent to a velociraptor, and he said "I'm gonna punch it in the face - instead of dealing damage, can I daze it for a round?"

"Sure," I said, "give me a Str attack against Fort."

He rolled a 20.

Punching a velociraptor in the face was already pretty cool, but critting it was awesome, so I swapped "Dazed until end of attacker's next turn" to "Stunned, save ends".

-Hyp.

[DracoSuave]

Originally Posted by Pbartender

Based on that page, it's feasible that you could make a case that getting the extra damage on a non-damaging attack is not ruled out. Page 225, I think, clarifies the intent.

Thanks, guys.

Extra damage is never applied when no damage happens. You need damage to occur before extra damage. (PHB2)

Non-damage and ongoing damage effects are a different story, however.

[Skallgrim]

You had me at "punch a velociraptor in the face."

[OakwoodDM]

Originally Posted by DracoSuave

Extra damage is never applied when no damage happens. You need damage to occur before extra damage. (PHB2)

Non-damage and ongoing damage effects are a different story, however.

What about a power like the Sorcerer's level 5 daily, Acidic Implantation? The power itself does damage, but that damage is part of the Effect, not the Hit. The hit only pushes. Would a critical hit apply the implement's special effects?

[Jurph]

Crits are exciting! They are the moments that everyone remembers from the encounter: "I was toe-to-toe with the giant, let loose with my daily attack... and CRITTED!" The party rallies around a character who crits; the tide of battle turns. For that reason alone, I'd say "yes" to OakwoodDM's question about magical damage as part of an effect (not part of the hit) -- justify it as a direct hit on an already-open wound or a soft spot in the armor, where the acid causes particular agony; or since Acidic Implantation does splash damage, perhaps you justify it as the sorcerer finding a particularly rich vein of magical power to tap into and summoning a more hideous acid than he'd managed to before.

You feel a surge of magical power, and you feel a pinching pricking tingle in your fingertips... you notice that you've summoned an otherworldly acid that is whitish-green and viscous, and that as soon as it appears it steams and boils. If only you had a library and an orrery nearby, you might find the confluence of stars and elemental powers that caused it! The hideous screams of your enemies will have to do for now.