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The racial feat Eladrin Soldier (You gain proficiency with all spears and a
+2 feat bonus to damage rolls with longswords and all spears.) gives you proficiency with all weapons of the spear category.
1. So does it grant you proficiency with Urgrosh? (Double Weapon Axe/Spear) Can you use it as an Axe and still gain proficiency bonus?
2. Can you use Longspear (Two Handed Polearm/Spear) as a Polearm and still gain proficiency bonus?
1a) Yes.
1b) No, but only because your question is flawed: no matter how you use an Urgosh, it is 100% axe and 100% spear. You can't "use it as" one or the other. It's always both.
2) Yes, because it's a Spear. You could also use the exotic superior Greatspear.
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Nifft is correct ... and that is why Eladrin Soldier is a very nice feat - it nets you more weapon proficiencies than any other feat and gives you a bonus to damage with all those new weapons you're proficient with.
Granted, the rules could be a little bit more clear on feats that affect a particular category of weapon interact with weapons that are multiple categories. It's an oversight that wouldn't have been too hard to have been corrected.
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Granted, the rules could be a little bit more clear on feats that affect a particular category of weapon interact with weapons that are multiple categories. It's an oversight that wouldn't have been too hard to have been corrected.
The rules regarding that is very simple tho: Is it an X? Then it benefits from X feats. And before someone cries foul, it's -realistic- that way. If they didn't want it to benefit from having multiple types, they'd not have given it multiple types.
And with double weapons, it's not like it's two seperate weapons attached with a bond of love forged in the fires of a brief meeting and only a silk cord between them. They are connected by far more, in such a way that you don't 'attack with one end' exclusively. If you know how to use an urgrosh, then you know how to use both ends, because if you don't know how to use both ends, you're not using it correctly. I.e. you're not proficient.
Yes, this means both eladrin and dwarves can take a feat to be proficient in it for different reasons, but they both learn to use the weapon properly--they use both ends even if the game rules don't indicate it through die-rolls.
The idea that double weapons are seperate weapons on a stick is laughable--if you try using a doublesword as you would a long sword you end up stabbing yourself in the gut.
While the questions have already been answered to the fullest in this thread, I figured I'd add that I found house-ruling the Eladrin Soldier and Dwarven Weapon Training feats works nicely:
The feats no longer grant proficiency with superior weapons and instead the feat bonus to damage increases to +3 at 11th level and +4 at 21st level.
This ensures that the feats will also have some appeal later on (beyond simply being a fancy "Weapon Proficiency (Greatspear)" feat) and means the superior weapons stay somewhat uncommon and exotic.
Are we sure about this ruling? Regardless of its groups, Urgosh is a superior weapon. PHB reads - "You can learn to use a superior weapon by taking the Weapon Proficiency feat."
Are we sure about this ruling? Regardless of its groups, Urgosh is a superior weapon. PHB reads - "You can learn to use a superior weapon by taking the Weapon Proficiency feat."
Yes, it's (from my understanding) a widely accepted way of understanding this.
The PHB says nowhere that the Weapon Proficiency feat is the only way to learn how to use a superior weapon. Otherwise the "Whip Training" and "Bola Training" feats from Dragon would lose a good deal of their appeal.
But as I've stated above, I personally change the racial feats in my campaigns to not grant proficiency with superior weapons. They're still very useful without that benefit, and I do grant them a different benefit to compensate.
Yes, it's (from my understanding) a widely accepted way of understanding this.
The PHB says nowhere that the Weapon Proficiency feat is the only way to learn how to use a superior weapon. Otherwise the "Whip Training" and "Bola Training" feats from Dragon would lose a good deal of their appeal.
But as I've stated above, I personally change the racial feats in my campaigns to not grant proficiency with superior weapons. They're still very useful without that benefit, and I do grant them a different benefit to compensate.
Hmm, ok I guess I see your point there. At least the bola and whip actually cost a feat. That eladrin feat seems too good a deal on a superior weapon . I agree, house rule of some kind is needed!
The Superior weapon thing doesn't bother me. It's a racial feat, so should be better than equivalent tier feats at that tier. But at the same time, it's a heroic feat, it doesn't -have- to be awesome beyond heroic tier.
Thing is, characters who hand-to-hand fight have martial weapon proficiency.
But more importantly, those feats are hardly unique anymore. Eberron gives Halflings one and Drow one, and they work under the Superior+2 banner, rather than the Martial+2/3/4.
I look at it this way. Don't you think they introduced Superior Hammers, Axes, and Spears in AV -specificly- so that DWT and ES can actually -do- something other than be a featswap in epic tier?
That's also why the dwarven weapon training (or whatever it's called) is flat out an amazing feat as well. Getting proficiency in roughly 6 superior weapons for one feat AND getting bonuses... no brainer for any dwarf that uses weapons at all. :P
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Are we sure about this ruling? Regardless of its groups, Urgosh is a superior weapon. PHB reads - "You can learn to use a superior weapon by taking the Weapon Proficiency feat."
The Superior weapon thing doesn't bother me. It's a racial feat, so should be better than equivalent tier feats at that tier. But at the same time, it's a heroic feat, it doesn't -have- to be awesome beyond heroic tier.
Thing is, characters who hand-to-hand fight have martial weapon proficiency.
But more importantly, those feats are hardly unique anymore. Eberron gives Halflings one and Drow one, and they work under the Superior+2 banner, rather than the Martial+2/3/4.
I look at it this way. Don't you think they introduced Superior Hammers, Axes, and Spears in AV -specificly- so that DWT and ES can actually -do- something other than be a featswap in epic tier?
While I do see the logic here, it fades at Paragon tier and is mostly gone at Epic. It's debatable if an epic Dwarf is better at using his weapon of choice compared to the Human Fighter who picked Weapon Proficiency (Execution Axe) and Weapon Focus (Axes).
That's why I've changed these "weapon affinity" feats to function the way Goliath Greatweapon Prowess does (no Superior weapon proficiency, but instead a +2/3/4 feat bonus to damage). This means that no matter what, the Dwarf Fighter will be better at using the Execution Axe as his "racial Weapon Focus" is better than what the Human can get, thus outlining the racial affinity.
Also, it means that superior weapons stay less commonplace as it's less of a no-brainer whether you want to invest in the Weapon Proficiency feat.
That's why I've changed these "weapon affinity" feats to function the way Goliath Greatweapon Prowess does (no Superior weapon proficiency, but instead a +2/3/4 feat bonus to damage).
I thought Goliath Greatweapon Prowess also granted proficiency with all two handed melee weapons. No?
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While I do see the logic here, it fades at Paragon tier and is mostly gone at Epic. It's debatable if an epic Dwarf is better at using his weapon of choice compared to the Human Fighter who picked Weapon Proficiency (Execution Axe) and Weapon Focus (Axes).
That's why I've changed these "weapon affinity" feats to function the way Goliath Greatweapon Prowess does (no Superior weapon proficiency, but instead a +2/3/4 feat bonus to damage). This means that no matter what, the Dwarf Fighter will be better at using the Execution Axe as his "racial Weapon Focus" is better than what the Human can get, thus outlining the racial affinity.
Also, it means that superior weapons stay less commonplace as it's less of a no-brainer whether you want to invest in the Weapon Proficiency feat.
Are superior weapons -supposed- to be 'rare' tho? Do remember that Goliath Greatweapon's extra damage is a) balanced against Weapon Focus, and b) never applies to superior weapons.
Now, granted, in your system, Dwarven Avenger is good but not omg +2Wis+Mordenkrad+2damage GO. However, other characters i.e. anything martial are a lock for being not a dwarf. +1 damage over-all per hit < the -1 to hit that Dwarves take with Fighter, Barbarian, etc. DWT giving them exotic weapons was a good balance point, where they could be a martial class and -capable- at it.
Without that, you simply won't realisticly see Dwarf Axe-Fighter, or Dwarf Hammerbarian all that often. Instead, you'll see nothing but Dwarf Laser Cleric, Dwarf Warlock, Dwarf Shaman and Dwarf Druid. Now, this might be what you want, but don't be surprised if you -never- see Axebeard in your games again.
Dwarves and Eladrin have fluff that defines them as good fighters, but they lack the STR bonus of Dragonborn, Goliaths, Minotaurs and Warforged. To compensate, they have feats that improve their melee abilities and make it feasible to play them in those iconic roles.
WRT these feats granting access to around a half dozen weapons: true, but you only use one at a time (shut up, ranger), and can normally only afford one or at most two to be reasonably enchanted. Gaining 6 proficiencies is a bit better than gaining 1, but not that much better.
This means that no matter what, the Dwarf Fighter will be better at using the Execution Axe as his "racial Weapon Focus" is better than what the Human can get, thus outlining the racial affinity.
No, he won't. He will have the same damage bonus but be suffering a penalty of 1 to attack.
The dwarf fighter that starts with 18 str is the human fighter that starts with 20. +1 str=+1 att and dmg. Negating the dwarven weapon proficiency bonus.
The real difference between the dwarf and the human RAW at this point is
Is a feat worth +1 to attack, and 1 dmg at paragon and another at epic? You might not think so compared to any other advantages that each get, but that is what the trade off is before you go and look at other feats.
If the human chooses not to take weapon focus they will only be 1 damage behind the dwarf with an advantage of +1 attack for the entire game.
fake edit: don't believe me? lets examine 2 fighters at lvl 2 one dwarven, one human, each wielding a waraxe
No, he won't. He will have the same damage bonus but be suffering a penalty of 1 to attack.
Who's talking about Fighters? I was thinking a Dwarf Avenger with a greataxe.
No, seriously: He'll be better than others with the same stats and of the same level, is what I meant. After all, not all classes use the same stats for attack and damage.
Last edited by Thundershield; 5th July 2009 at 10:32 PM..
Who's talking about Fighters? I was thinking a Dwarf Avenger with a greataxe.
No, seriously: He'll be better than others with the same stats and of the same level, is what I meant. After all, not all classes use the same stats for attack and damage.
He'll do more damage with a normal power use. But... he won't be getting the mobility of the Elf Avenger, or the pure BURLY BRAWL of the Deva.
Who's talking about Fighters? I was thinking a Dwarf Avenger with a greataxe.
You are
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundershield
This means that no matter what, the Dwarf Fighter will be better at using the Execution Axe as his "racial Weapon Focus" is better than what the Human can get, thus outlining the racial affinity.
That eladrin feat seems too good a deal on a superior weapon . I agree, house rule of some kind is needed!
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