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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimaGabe
Nobody's saying it should be an Encounter. It's a power that can be used a certain number of times per day. Thus, it should be a daily with more than one use.
I know that when introducing newbies to the game, having Lay On Hands labeled as an "At-Will" is confusing.
That said, it's not exactly a "Daily" either, as it's not "used up" at the end of an encounter. Put differently: Are there any other Dailies that you can activate during an encounter, then activate again during a short rest, then activate again during another encounter (etc)?
It is At-Will. You can activate it whenever you feel like it. But - and we all know this - you may only use this particular At-Will as many times per day as your Wisdom mod, and only if you have enough healing surges to pay for it.
Bottom Line: LoH follows the At-Will power structure better than the Daily power structure.
__________________ - Nail
Last edited by Nail: Today....just a few minutes ago
I know that when introducing newbies to the game, having Lay On Hands labeled as an "At-Will" is confusing.
(snip)
It is At-Will. You can activate it whenever you feel like it. But - and we all know this - you may only use this particular At-Will as many times per day as your Wisdom mod, and only if you have enough healing surges to pay for it.
Bottom Line: LoH follows the At-Will power structure better than the Daily power structure.
I think you've nailed it (haha ). It's a clarity issue. It's easier to explain an as at-will with a limited number of uses than as a daily with special rules and exceptions. It preserves dailies as "use once a day," even if you would most naturally describe LoH as "use X times a day."
Lay on Hands is an At-Will because the number of times you can use it per day is based on your Wisdom modifier, not once per day or once per encounter - AND you can use it whenever you want, as many times per encounter/day as you wish (though only once per round).
If you have a +6 WIS modifier, then you have 6 uses that you can take advantage of anytime. 6 in the first encounter, 2 per encounter, or maybe none if things are going very well.
As weird as it looks, this is by far the most sensible way to classify the power given the way it is used. It is unique compared to any other classes healing out there and fits the flavor of the Paladin perfectly!
When doing up my own power cards I just use the frequency "Limited" instead of At-Will/Encounter/Daily. Which basically means "see text". I find this is the simplest way to communicate the relevant part to players, which is the important part.
Look, I came here because I noticed an inconsitency in the Player's Handbook. (You can't argue that there are plenty of them.) And instead of being helpful, or in any way whatsoever constructive, you've wasted both your own time and mine in order to "convince people it's a useless topic". If you disagree, simply say so and let that be the end of it. Are you trying to be malicious, or do you honestly have nothing better to do?
Wait, but I responded with a legitimate answer above because I have nothing better to do... :P
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Show me a daily power that uses the 'usable more than one time per day' clause, because otherwise there is no inconsistency. If there are no other examples, then Lay on Hands is the precedent.
Show me a daily power that uses the 'usable more than one time per day' clause, because otherwise there is no inconsistency. If there are no other examples, then Lay on Hands is the precedent.
Well, there is Swordmage's Decree in Arcane Power. It's a level 6 daily utility that acts like an encounter power if you use it on a single target.
Not sure that it really meets your criteria though.
Ah here we go, Barbarian Rage Strike specifically says that it is usable twice per day and it is a daily power. I'm about to Rage Strike these power denominaaatttiooonnss-!!
Look, I came here because I noticed an inconsitency in the Player's Handbook. (You can't argue that there are plenty of them.) And instead of being helpful, or in any way whatsoever constructive, you've wasted both your own time and mine in order to "convince people it's a useless topic". If you disagree, simply say so and let that be the end of it. Are you trying to be malicious, or do you honestly have nothing better to do?
Slight tangent, but would it be too much if the limitation was changed from wis mod to instead the paladin could use LoH as long as they still had healing surges? Would this be too powerful? Would it step on the toes of leaders too much? Is there something else I'm missing here that would break?
Slight tangent, but would it be too much if the limitation was changed from wis mod to instead the paladin could use LoH as long as they still had healing surges?
I don't really see any problems.
As defenders, paladins should expect to get injured a lot, meaning they will be expending a fair amount of surges just to heal themselves. This wouldn't really leave many spare surges to use on other PCs.
Likewise, it doesn't seem very efficient in terms of total hp healed, if I am using it on a player with fewer hp than the paladin.
So while a paladin could potentially use LoH 12 times at 1st lv (assuming a con of 14) using your rule, in reality, I believe it would get used a lot less often.
Has anyone played in a game where their paladin had a reason to want to spam LoH? The only issue I can see is that it would allow the paladin to heal himself as a minor action (as opposed to a standard action required for second wind). But then clerics can already do that (and heal even more hp in the process, so...
As defenders, paladins should expect to get injured a lot, meaning they will be expending a fair amount of surges just to heal themselves. This wouldn't really leave many spare surges to use on other PCs.
Likewise, it doesn't seem very efficient in terms of total hp healed, if I am using it on a player with fewer hp than the paladin.
So while a paladin could potentially use LoH 12 times at 1st lv (assuming a con of 14) using your rule, in reality, I believe it would get used a lot less often.
Has anyone played in a game where their paladin had a reason to want to spam LoH? The only issue I can see is that it would allow the paladin to heal himself as a minor action (as opposed to a standard action required for second wind). But then clerics can already do that (and heal even more hp in the process, so...
While it is debatable whether a party member is worth healing or not, I am curious how you get about being able to use Lay on Hands 12 times a day at 1st level...
Anyway, I follow UltimaGabe's thinking, and it does serve two purposes if the power is turned into a "Daily (Special)" power instead.
First off, your enemy won't be able to use it while you're Dominated (and having the party's Paladin burn a healing surge to restore a quarter of that Solo monster's HP isn't going to make him popular - and Paladins really don't need to be less popular).
Secondly, making it a Daily would allow for various magic items, powers, and effects to restore uses to it, should the players decide they need that. An assortment of powers restore Daily powers or powers in general, but you won't ever see a power that restores an At-Will power (for obvious reasons).
Lastly, by way of consistency, it is a power that can be used X times per day, just like any other Daily, and giving it the (Special) tag would indicate this number to be potentially greater than 1, just like with Healing Word or Majestic Word or even Lay on Hands as written. There's definitely consistency in the proposed change, even if there are no other "Daily (Special)" powers.
Last edited by Thundershield; 24th June 2009 at 08:35 AM..
Reason: Typo and remembering LoH isn't a utility power
Slight tangent, but would it be too much if the limitation was changed from wis mod to instead the paladin could use LoH as long as they still had healing surges? Would this be too powerful? Would it step on the toes of leaders too much? Is there something else I'm missing here that would break?
It can be used on self. Paladins would be unkillable.
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While it is debatable whether a party member is worth healing or not, I am curious how you get about being able to use Lay on Hands 12 times a day at 1st level...
A 1st lv paladin would have 12 surges (assuming a con of 14), and I was replying to half-dragon's query (meaning that my response assumed that there was no wis-mod cap on the number of uses).
A 1st lv paladin would have 12 surges (assuming a con of 14), and I was replying to half-dragon's query (meaning that my response assumed that there was no wis-mod cap on the number of uses).
That said, it's not exactly a "Daily" either, as it's not "used up" at the end of an encounter.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. Are we talking about Dailies, or Encounters? Since when are Dailies limited by encounters (beyond the ones that specifically last an encounter)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nail
Put differently: Are there any other Dailies that you can activate during an encounter, then activate again during a short rest, then activate again during another encounter (etc)?.
No, because there aren't any dailies (for the most part) that can be used more than once per day. Better question: Are there any other At-Wills that can only be used a certain number of times per day?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nail
It is At-Will. You can activate it whenever you feel like it. But - and we all know this - you may only use this particular At-Will as many times per day as your Wisdom mod, and only if you have enough healing surges to pay for it.
Do other Dailies have a limit as to when you can use them? They can be used once per day, of course. Any other limit? Any other rules beyond, "This power can only be used once per day"?
But let's say you only have a Wisdom of 12- then, LoH can only be used once per day. Let's say you take a Paladin Daily that allows the Paladin to spend a Healing Surge to heal someone else for their surge value. What's the difference between these two powers?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LightPhoenix
It's a clarity issue. It's easier to explain an as at-will with a limited number of uses than as a daily with special rules and exceptions. It preserves dailies as "use once a day," even if you would most naturally describe LoH as "use X times a day."
See, that's where you lost me. Dailies are powers that are only usable once per day. Encounters are powers that are usable once per encounter. At-Wills are powers that don't have a limit to how many times they can be used. So the difference is between an At-Will with special rules, or a Daily with special rules?
How is it easier to explain it as an At-Will that isn't really At-Will, instead of a Daily that can be used X number of times per day? To me, the difference between At-Wills, Encounters, and Dailies is how often they recharge. Dailies recharge after an Extended Rest (i.e., each day). Encounters recharge after a Short Rest (i.e., each encounter). At-Wills don't need to recharge- you can use them forever. Yet LoH recharges after an extended rest. I don't see how it fits as an At-Will.
I guess the general populace here seems to see the issue completely different than me- which boggles my mind. But, I guess that's how it is.
You've got to admit, though, it's labelled weird, especially when compared to similar powers like Healing Word.
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Last edited by UltimaGabe; 26th June 2009 at 07:54 AM..
Reason: Made my post much more long-winded.
There are other Daily (Special) powers. Well, one at least. The Barbarian's "Rage Strike"! This is a daily that can be used multiple times per day (albeit at a heavy cost).
So, it seems the (Special) tag means that this power can be used multiple times per day, making a Daily (Special) seem more inconsistent than an At-Will (Special) as At-Wills can be used as many times as you like, normally.
Last edited by Thundershield; 26th June 2009 at 09:23 AM..
My own thought was that the power was easier to write as an at will that had a restriction on how many times a day it could be used.
That said, it is easier to conceptualize (at least for me) as a power that grants a number of daily powers. If I ever play a palladin, I will create one power card for each use, using the same backer for them as I would for my daily powers.
Rules wise, I think the rule could be written either way and largely be indentical. The difference it would make is for conditions/powers such as dominate which allow someone else to direct your use of an at-will power. If it were written as a daily, a cleric could be dominated to heal one of his enemies, but a paladin could not, which seems a bit incongruous - there seems no background reason why their healing should be treated differently in such a situation. Perhaps Lay on Hands was made a "limited at-will" rather than a "multiple daily" to address this very problem.
That said, I believe this difference was mentioned previously in this thread.
). It's a clarity issue. It's easier to explain an as at-will with a limited number of uses than as a daily with special rules and exceptions. It preserves dailies as "use once a day," even if you would most naturally describe LoH as "use X times a day."
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