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A Paladin can be benefited from various ability scores. But you don't need to have all of them. Depends on ability score distribution, some paladin may not do something other paladins can do. Still, he is an efficient character.
Regarding AC, even without taking feats, a Paladin tend to have at least equal or even better AC than a warden with some AC improving feats. In overall low-AC is a significant weak-spot of PHB II defenders and leaders. Paladin class has better NADs, too.
Paladin's powers do better damages comparing to those of warden. And channel divinity may increase the hitting power more (well... Tempus).
Lay on Hands is a kind of "Automated External Defibrillator for the party's leader". It is an insurance. When the party leader (or all the leaders of the party) are dying, a paladin can wake one up with an minor action.
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If it's any consolation, there is a Paladin feat from Dragon Magazine which makes your Divine Challenge do 2 Radiant Dmg when you place it on your undead foe. Thats an instant hit... an undead minion killer, and as Undead are usually vulnerable to radiant damge, that increases to 7 or 12 damge and will disable many undead creatures auras or regenerations... all that without rolling a dice! (and only looking at heroic tier)
Dragon 371, Cleansing Challenge: very nice!
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I think the problem is that with PHB1 classes WotC erred on the side of caution because it was a new edition and they were afraid of making classes "too good". After this they realized that hey, we should have done more with features X, Y and Z and start to incorporate it into later books. That's why PHB2 classes seem to be better - by the time PHB2 was being done, WotC had realized that they went TOO FAR on the side of caution with PHB1 and upped the ante a little.
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To be honest, the worst class balance problems are in the PHB1. Fighters and Rangers are basically the most powerful classes in 4th ed so far, and Paladins are among the weakest. The Warden may be better than the Paladin, but he's not better than the Fighter.
To be honest, the worst class balance problems are in the PHB1. Fighters and Rangers are basically the most powerful classes in 4th ed so far, and Paladins are among the weakest. The Warden may be better than the Paladin, but he's not better than the Fighter.
The paladin doesn't have a "power" book for it yet. Avengers etc. are "balanced" against classes that do.
Martial training erases the STR issue.
Plate proficiency/enfeebling strike erases the AC issue.
Paladins start with more feats than anyone else, erasing the surges issue.
This leaves needing Str, Wis, and Cha.
Of these, Str is only important if it's your primary, otherwise you can do without, and Wis only serves one class feature, and not your most important ability in terms of defense.
Paladins start with more feats? Where are you reading this? What surge issue are you referring to as well?
A lot of these suggestions on how to fix paladins to be more in line with other classes seem to involve them spending feats to do so. If you do that you are still not equal as those other classes had the options of spending their feats however they want rather than having to use them to patch design holes causing them to be weak in the first place.
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Paladins start with more feats? Where are you reading this? What surge issue are you referring to as well?
Presumably the fact that paladins start with proficiency in all armors and shields; the equivalent of 7 feats.
Paladins start with 10 + Con surges, more than any other defender. I assume linking feats to that was a typo.
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A lot of these suggestions on how to fix paladins to be more in line with other classes seem to involve them spending feats to do so. If you do that you are still not equal as those other classes had the options of spending their feats however they want rather than having to use them to patch design holes causing them to be weak in the first place.
I agree, which is why I've just overhauled the paladin into a more A-shaped form for my games.
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The paladin doesn't have a "power" book for it yet. Avengers etc. are "balanced" against classes that do.
I'd say straight PHB1(no supplements) fighters and especially rangers actually come out ahead of the PHB2 classes as far as powerlevel goes. Dual Wield Rangers are busted right out of the PHB, and Two Hander fighters are good defenders that do striker level damage. Both of these classes get even more powerful when you start adding supplements, but even in their base forms I still consider them to be the most powerful classes in 4th edition.
Avengers are divine. In theory, they get love in the same book as the paladins.
It'll probably be tough love while the paladin gets showered in rainbow sprinkles.
When the PHB2 came out would anyone want to buy it to play a class out of it if they were all weaker than the PHB1 classes that got buffed from Martial Power?
I think Divine Power will level the playing field a bit. Even if that means that they're putting hoists under the field and cranking it so high even the nose bleed seats can't see it.
I try to keep an open mind, but it seems they really just made a lot of PHB2 classes better. In the last adventure one of the players in the group decided to make a warden, a defender class from the PHB2. I play a paladin, also a defender class.
Warden is nice, but they can mark anyone in melee with them as a free action, which seems noticeably better than other defenders who must at least attack to mark.
The warden's marking is if anything a little on the weak side. They can't mark from range - I believe that all other defenders can, although in the swordmage's case their range is limited - and the effects of the mark aside from the -2 are lackluster.
Consider the situation of a defender running up to a foe and marking it. On the foe's turn, it shifts away and then charges another PC (eating the -2 to hit from the mark). If the defender is a warden and the monster is further than 25 ft away, nothing happens. If the monster is within 25 ft, the warden can pull it 5 ft closer - after the attack.
Meanwhile, a fighter would get a free attack when the monster shifts away. A paladin deals radiant damage to the monster. A swordmage gets to reduce the damage or gets a free attack or teleports the monster back to him.
The warden's mark is nice vs lots of melee foes, or against a stationary foe. In most other cases I would say the other defenders do their job better.
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Originally Posted by Otterscrubber
Then we hit lvl 2 and I was picking my paladin's utility power. I went with Sacred Circle, Daily, Close burst 3, gives +1 to allies AC for the fight. I joking said the warden would probably have the same power but gives +2 to AC. I was wrong, it is the same thing but gives cover to allies, which is actually +2 to ALL defenses for the fight in a close burst 3. After we all laughed about it for a bit, I thought about it more and it just really seems that the classes in the PHB2 seem to have a lot of benefits with few of the drawbacks of classes in the PHB. Sorry if this has been brought up before, but please let me know your thoughts.
Well, the warden's utility is better in this case. And I do think that there has been some power creep with the utility powers... There's some lvl 2 warlock utility that is flat-out superior to a level 6 warlock utility. And that's in the same class! The paladin has other advantages, though, in that his attacks deal more damage (the warden is probably the least damaging class around) and has healing abilities that the warden simply lacks.
Well, the warden's utility is better in this case. And I do think that there has been some power creep with the utility powers...
Personally, I think a lot of the powers printed are not really worth taking. I also believe that PHB1 has a higher percentage of terrible powers than later publications. I further believe that Betelgeuse was waxing in the house of Virgo, causing a convergence of suck in paladin utility powers for level two.
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They can't mark from range - I believe that all other defenders can, although in the swordmage's case their range is limited - and the effects of the mark aside from the -2 are lackluster.
Erm... fighters? Technically they can mark with a ranged basic attack or a special-case like dragonborn breath weapons, but their mark does absolutely nothing besides the -2 if they aren't in melee range.
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Erm... fighters? Technically they can mark with a ranged basic attack or a special-case like dragonborn breath weapons, but their mark does absolutely nothing besides the -2 if they aren't in melee range.
You're missing the distinction. The fighter can lay a mark on from range, the warden cannot. And if either can get close, the fighter can punish that enemy for attacking someone else[CC on shift] and the Warden cannot.
There is nothing wrong with Chaladin's either[they are easily on par as defenders as fighters if not the best pure defenders in the game]. They have great AC, lots of surges and their secondary stats aren't all that important[making str as a true secondary just fine so that you can pick up whatever attacks you really want. The only problem with the Paladin is that your mark is ineffective if you don't pump cha. Aside from that its has 2 primary and 1 secondary stats and you choose between one of the primary stats where as other classes have 1 primary and 2-3 secondary and you choose between the secondary stats. This would not be that big of a deal in the long run if your diving challenge were strength or charisma[or wisdom]. And that is even considering the lack of daily diversification
To me the biggest improvement has been in power design, hallmarked by the Avenger.
The Avenger has nearly all effect based dailies, and many all encounter type dailies. To me, these are the dailies that matter, they are the dailies I see everyone take regardless of class.
Further, the Avenger even has encounter powers with effects, and fun ones at that. For example, there is a 3rd level power that gives the Avenger phasing as an effect. Its an "attack power" but because of its effect, you can easily use it out of a combat. To me, that is great power design, I really hope to see more of it.
I think aftereffects were used much better to buff up many save ends powers. Save ends often don't last long enough (without item/orb buffs) to make them worth it, but aftereffects can completely change that dynamic.
The only place I feel the phb2 is strictly superior is the sorcerer vs the warlock. I've read the debates, but every time I read the sorcerer I see a better warlock. I have seen two warlocks played in games, and both have decided to switch characters.
I'll also pipe in that while I think the warden is better than the paladin (which I'm in the camp that says it definitely needs a boost in DP) it is certainly not better than the fighter.
Finally, just to throw a little more wood on the fire, while PHB2 has its stars, none of their classes (not even the mighty barbarian) can top the sheer raw power of the archer ranger. It is to me the most powerful class in the game (and also the most boring).
none of their classes (not even the mighty barbarian) can top the sheer raw power of the archer ranger. It is to me the most powerful class in the game (and also the most boring).
I'd say that really, REALLY depends on your definition of powerful. dprRoverratedimo.
I'll echo what other people have said here, the PHB2 classes seem better laid out and designed, but not actually more powerful. My last three characters have all been from the PHB2, but I play back to back with classes that aren't and we seem to come out about the same. (The Warlord has better spot heals than my Shaman, but he can't spread the hurt out as well, for example.)
1. Basically everybody is fine if you aren't a big mix/maxer
2. Warlocks simply don't have enough damage attached to their abilities
3. Paladins have a severe and unnecessary case of MAD.
4. Ranged weapon users should not do as much damage as melee weapon users due to the fact that they have the advantage of being ranged.
1. Basically everybody is fine if you aren't a big mix/maxer
2. Warlocks simply don't have enough damage attached to their abilities
3. Paladins have a severe and unnecessary case of MAD.
4. Ranged weapon users should not do as much damage as melee weapon users due to the fact that they have the advantage of being ranged.
1) I agree
2) Not sure I agree, whenever we've had a warlock in the group they have dealt significant damage while also remained the hardest to kill.
3) What is MAD? Even without know thign, I'm going to agree though
4) I found a melee ranger x-classed to fighter dished out a ton of hurt, especially with Storm Warden as the paragon path and scimitar dance. Would deal significant damage even if all attacks missed. I keep hearing about the ranged ranger dishing it out though even more, but I"m not sure how.....
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