D&D 4th Edition RulesAsk questions about 4th-Edition rules and the like in here. General discussion about 4E or any other game belongs in General RPG Discussion, above.
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Intervening enemies are providing a cover bonus to AC for the *target*, making it harder to hit on that ranged attack. Intervening allies can be ignored by the attacker.
The text of the feat is refering to the *attacker* gaining cover relative to the target, which to my reading means 'hide behind something'
Two seperate mechanical effects for the same word
Buh?
The attacker (Rogue) is gaining Cover vs the target (Enemy) by moving behind an ally (Paladin). That seems to fit the wording of the feat I quoted above doesn't it? I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say.
__________________ “When one awakes, and rolls from his pallet, and strides across the cold rushes to put flame to lantern. When the world is asleep around him. When the whippoorwill sings and crickets speak. When one is alone, in silence, with nothing but a book. That, my son, is glory. That is all the glory a man ever needs, and more besides.” - Sage Poridel Poriden, Sins of Our Fathers
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Deft Strike is good for positioning, but Sly Flourish has superior damage. When I played a Rogue, though admittedly for only one level, I found myself using Sly Flourish a lot more than Deft Strike, especially for ranged attacks.
Regarding cover, this is the text from the block on Cover in the PHB:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PHB p280
When you make a ranged attack against an enemy and other enemies are in the way, your target has cover. Your allies never grant cover to your enemies, and neither allies nor enemies give cover against melee, close, or area attacks.
The Stealth errata (see PHB2 or errata for PHB) says absolutely nothing about the interaction creatures and stealth. Of course, creatures don't normally provide superior cover. So RAW, Black Arrow Feat will allow him to dart behind allies to gain cover from enemies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caliber
An ally normally isn't enough Cover for Stealth checks, but isn't this a case of specific trumping general?
I would say so.
Now, RAI? I would say BAF should not include allies. It's clearly written to allow Sniper Rogues to gain CA more often, and that's fine. However, it should be something like ducking around a pillar, not hiding behind the Fighter.
The attacker (Rogue) is gaining Cover vs the target (Enemy) by moving behind an ally (Paladin). That seems to fit the wording of the feat I quoted above doesn't it? I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say.
Allies only provide cover against ranged attacks. If the provided actual cover, then they would grant the +2 Versus , &. Part of the argument involves how the PHB defines cover.
Allies only provide cover against ranged attacks. If the provided actual cover, then they would grant the +2 Versus , &. Part of the argument involves how the PHB defines cover.
Ah ok! I understand the argument now.
See, but I'd respond with this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Compendium
Determining Cover: To determine if a target has cover, choose a corner of a square you occupy (or a corner of your attack’s origin square) and trace imaginary lines from that corner to every corner of any one square the target occupies. If one or two of those lines are blocked by an obstacle or an enemy, the target has cover.
Emphasis placed by me. It might be Cover that doesn't count in all instances, but it does still seem to be Cover.
Edit: More specifically, I'd say that Area/Close attacks ability that specifies that they don't consider enemies as granting Cover is a specific property of Area/Close attacks which overrides the general property of enemies as providing cover to their allies. Did that make sense?
__________________ “When one awakes, and rolls from his pallet, and strides across the cold rushes to put flame to lantern. When the world is asleep around him. When the whippoorwill sings and crickets speak. When one is alone, in silence, with nothing but a book. That, my son, is glory. That is all the glory a man ever needs, and more besides.” - Sage Poridel Poriden, Sins of Our Fathers
Are you running SoW and are interested in getting some ideas on the overarching plot?
Looking for better ways to tie the disparate modules together?
Come visit my thread on doing exactly that! Also, visit the wiki it inspired! Player's stay out!
Last edited by Caliber; 28th June 2009 at 09:30 PM..
It's a good question either way, but both conceptually (Black Arrow involves "briefly" gaining Stealth, which can't be done using allies as cover) and in terms of game play (because it's making him a one-trick pony), I think that bringing the "allies don't count for this" home to the table is very reasonable. Explain why you're making the call.
...
The Stealth errata (see PHB2 or errata for PHB) says absolutely nothing about the interaction creatures and stealth. Of course, creatures don't normally provide superior cover. So RAW, Black Arrow Feat will allow him to dart behind allies to gain cover from enemies.
...
It does. Under "Keep out of Sight" it reads "You can't use another creature as cover to remain hidden"
I'd argue that this feat is merely adding another use of the Stealth skill, since it doesn't really hide you in any way resembling the standard use of Stealth. You only have to beat the passive Perception of one enemy, and you aren't hidden at all, they still know precisely where you are. You just have combat advantage vs them. More like feinting with Bluff that is reusable under certain conditions.
I'd call not allowing allies to count as Cover for this feat a house rule, although not totally egregious, as long as you'd let someone who took Black Arrow without knowing the chance to change.
__________________ “When one awakes, and rolls from his pallet, and strides across the cold rushes to put flame to lantern. When the world is asleep around him. When the whippoorwill sings and crickets speak. When one is alone, in silence, with nothing but a book. That, my son, is glory. That is all the glory a man ever needs, and more besides.” - Sage Poridel Poriden, Sins of Our Fathers
Are you running SoW and are interested in getting some ideas on the overarching plot?
Looking for better ways to tie the disparate modules together?
Come visit my thread on doing exactly that! Also, visit the wiki it inspired! Player's stay out!
Remaining Hidden: You remain hidden as long as you meet these requirements.
Keep Out of Sight: If you no longer have any cover or concealment against an enemy, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy. You don’t need superior cover, total concealment, or to stay outside line of sight, but you do need some degree of cover or concealment to remain hidden. You can’t use another creature as cover to remain hidden.
__________________ "Ná Eru veria le, ná elenath dín síla erin rád o chuil lín."
The cover is only in effect when the ranged attack is made, and only the target has the cover.
The stealth rules state you can't use allies to remain stealthed, even though they grant you cover from ranged attacks.
Hrms. That (the bolded part) is a pretty solid reason to rule allies don't count. But it seems to be disputed by this 'graph:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Determining Cover
Determining Cover: To determine if a target has cover, choose a corner of a square you occupy (or a corner of your attack’s origin square) and trace imaginary lines from that corner to every corner of any one square the target occupies. If one or two of those lines are blocked by an obstacle or an enemy, the target has cover. (A line isn’t blocked if it runs along the edge of an obstacle’s or an enemy’s square.) If three or four of those lines are blocked but you have line of effect, the target has superior cover.
As for the stealth stuff, again, the feat doesn't really interact with the regular stealth rules at all; it simply uses the Stealth skill. The rules for how to use Stealth to hide are completely tangential here.
Last edited by Caliber; 29th June 2009 at 03:44 PM..
Reason: Me no quote so gud
Well, the basic problem is that 'cover' isn't well-defined at all, outside of the two situations... one, Keeping Hidden, and two, "To determine if a target...". You're not his target (remember that "target" has a specific game meaning) for anything; you're not using Stealth normally. So the cover rules, if narrowly construed, actually say nothing about the situation.
Which leaves it up to the DM to quite legitimately decide which is closer to the usage here. And IMO the fact that it calls for a Stealth roll makes it much closer to the Stealth situation than the targeting one. So... YMMV, but in my opinion it isn't even a house rule. It's a rules call on an unclear situation. Pending errata, the narrowly-construed RAW appears to say nothing about it at all. So it's up to the DM, even in Living Forgotten Realms.
Sure, give him a chance to retrain Black Arrow if he doesn't like it. But IMO the feat is still easily the best of the Style feats and well worth its weight. Betcha the player will feel so as well.
It's a rules call on an unclear situation. Pending errata, the narrowly-construed RAW appears to say nothing about it at all. So it's up to the DM, even in Living Forgotten Realms.
Also agreed, however this DM will be ruling that the Stealth {be hidden} rules apply and you can't simply duck behind an ally.
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. If the provided actual cover, then they would grant the +2 Versus 
, 
&
. Part of the argument involves how the PHB defines cover.
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