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I'm sure this has been beat into the ground, but let me state and ask again:
It seems to me that a Level 1 Ranger with Twin Strike and Quarry is way too loc. Basically, with a longbow, you can max out at 26hp on one person in one attach - usually around 14 - 18hp. Add on top of that the feat which adds an extra 10 to his range... woof!
Basically, the Ranger is dominating the battlefield taking over 80% of the kills. Minions can't do a thing, because he's rocking them out 2 at a time.
As a DM it just strikes me as too much. Are we playing this wrong.
A few things im thinking of doing:
1) Quarry remains (and cannot be changed) till target is dead
2) Nerfing the twin strike (either making it an encounter, or giving a -2)
Level 1 and level 30 is 4e at its most broken (which it stil isnt that much). I'd argue more so at level 1 (skill bonuses can get stupid). Rangers are strikers and honestly thats probably the best striker at-will in the game. It may be more powerful than most other options at that level, but houseruling it to make it much worse is just going to pan out badly in a few levels.
Get into another few levels and if you are still seeing a huge discrepancy between striker damage I'd make sure the other strikers are doing everything right before houseruling twin strike
I would go as far as to say ranged based characters are the most dominating in the game. Bow Rangers reflect this nicely, but Sorc and Warlocks both seem to perform better than most builds as well. Melee characters rely a lot more on other melee/leaders to keep them in the fray.
Of course, D&D is supposed to be a game of teamwork, so I'm not really saying this is a problem...just that the ranged characters are far less likely to fall unconscious or even be threatened, and far more likely to get more kills.
What puts the bow ranger over the top is the sheer mobility it has though. He has powers to allow him to continuously shoot at a target and get total concealment in almost every encounter. In an open field, his movement will almost guarantee that he can just back away faster than any enemy could keep up.
Rangers are Strikers. They're supposed to kill stuff, fast and hard.
If he can target everyone on the battlefield, though, it may be that you're using boring terrain. Consider using ranged enemies behind cover (ramparts, arrow slits in a wall, a thicket of trees, or whatever -- stuff you need to walk around before you can target them effectively).
Smoke, steam, darkness, tapestries or shimmering curtains of fey magic (i.e. concealing "terrain") also limit line-of-sight, and therefore limit ranged attacks.
Use some Brutes, too. He'll love dealing a boatload of damage, and the enemy will have the HP to not go down too quickly.
Cheers, -- N
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Yeah, the damage output is fine. It's a few points higher than other strikers at low levels, but it quickly evens out. It's not like 3-4 points difference per attack is going to matter much when foes have 40 hit points. Either way, it's still going to take two rounds of character actions to take that guy down.
If your other strikers are doing sub-optimal damage though due to poor builds or tactics, then it exacerbates the difference. A bow Ranger is nigh impossible to build wrong and the optimal tactic is mind numbingly easy, that even a beginner can do as much damage as the most tactically savvy player.
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I'm sure this has been beat into the ground, but let me state and ask again:
It seems to me that a Level 1 Ranger with Twin Strike and Quarry is way too loc. Basically, with a longbow, you can max out at 26hp on one person in one attach - usually around 14 - 18hp. Add on top of that the feat which adds an extra 10 to his range... woof!
Boosting the range is a bit of a waste.
Twin Strike is one of the best at-wills in the game without a question.
That doesn't necessarily mean that it needs to be nerfed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gjnave
Basically, the Ranger is dominating the battlefield taking over 80% of the kills. Minions can't do a thing, because he's rocking them out 2 at a time.
don't worry too much about what he's doing to minions. If the striker is consistantly hitting minions then he's not doing damage to other attackers and that's where he's much more use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gjnave
As a DM it just strikes me as too much. Are we playing this wrong.
A few things im thinking of doing:
1) Quarry remains (and cannot be changed) till target is dead
2) Nerfing the twin strike (either making it an encounter, or giving a -2)
What do you all think?
All 1) does is give the ranger less flexibility and generally that's a way to make characters less fun for the players.
2) giving a -2 to attacks with twin strike is a huge penalty for the ranger.
Making it an encounter power means that rangers suddenly get much less powerful.
I see the change as a far worse idea than just leaving things as they are.
Use terrain with cover/total cover. Limit the size of the battle field (indoors, caves, cramped allyways) and make sure your enemies have ways to get to the ranger. One of the weaknesses of ranged characters is that they aren't great in melee.
Don't single him out all the time, but make sure you regularly include tactics in your encounters that are challenging for him instead of letting him sit in the back and play a Wow DPS character.
Basically, the Ranger is dominating the battlefield taking over 80% of the kills. Minions can't do a thing, because he's rocking them out 2 at a time.
I know this might sound obvious but have you tried including artillery creatures in your encounters? You can use these to put the archer under pressure, especially if you have 2 or more focusing their fire on him while a couple of brutes or soldiers try and keep the melee characters at bay.
You can also have a few reinforcements attack from the flank or the rear, appearing in round 2 or 3. These will force a ranged attacker to rethink their tactic of hanging back out of support range from their allies.
Also as others have stated terrain is the great leveller.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gjnave
As a DM it just strikes me as too much.
Yes a bow ranger is probably the best striker and a massive damage dealer, the Bow Ranger in my campaign does an insane amount of damage. But thats his job, as a DM I have no problems with any character doing large damage, its cinematic, fun and exciting. Its ongoing status effects that worry me (but thats an entirely different story).
If I was you I would stop worrying about damage output and start looking ahead at the encounter and daily powers your group will be picking in the next couple of levels.
It seems to me that a Level 1 Ranger with Twin Strike and Quarry is way too loc. Basically, with a longbow, you can max out at 26hp on one person in one attach - usually around 14 - 18hp. Add on top of that the feat which adds an extra 10 to his range... woof!
And a rogue can target reflex, have an attack roll 2 points higher and hit for around the same damage. (dagger, backstabber, +4/+2 primary/secondary stat mods).
The only person really falling behind is the warlock, but if the warlock is smart, he can be whacking out 3d6+10 in a round OR controlling the battlefield to a significant degree (if he applies the secondary effects of the infernal or star at-wills properly).
I don't disagree that twin strike is a problem, but it's not really a problem at the levels and numbers you're talking about. Where it really becomes a problem is when you start stacking on damage modifiers and other bonus damage (like crit dice), and the exact same thing happens with every single multi-attack power. Someone striking 3 times effectively get triple benefit from every single damage boost currently in the game, except ironically striker bonus damage.
It seems to me that a Level 1 Ranger with Twin Strike and Quarry is way too loc. Basically, with a longbow, you can max out at 26hp on one person in one attach - usually around 14 - 18hp. Add on top of that the feat which adds an extra 10 to his range... woof!
How do you get your average 14-18 damage? Did you add Dex to it, because that would be wrong..
On average you should have one hit with 10 damage (5.5 (longbow) + 4.5 (d8 Quarry with Feat) ). Which is nice because it is quite easy to get it thanks to your two attacks, but it is not THAT high that it should outshine everyone.
Try mixing up encounters a bit, like people have suggested. This can be a little tricky at level one since there aren't any monsters of lower level, but you can add some variety by scaling level 2-3 monsters down or just reskin level 1 monsters with different descriptions.
Also, yeah, if you're outside all the time the range is going to be awesome. But most indoor maps don't have rooms more than 12 squares across. Plus... use the stealth rules. Gnome skulks can be a major pain in the ass with some good Stealth rolls by the DM.
Or encounters like a "Wolf pack"... at level 1, three kobold skirmishers, eight minions, and a spiretop drake shouldn't even be a major challenge for 5 PCs, but with that much mobility you should be able to mob everyone and make the archer's life a lot more interesting. And if the archer is really dishing out so much damage, there's good reason for the monsters to mob her. Monsters can run and charge too, which means they can possibly close 16 squares per round. The ranger can't get everybody.
In my party the archer does mostly put out a constant stream of huge damage. But even with good AC she has a tendency to get hurt quickly in melee, and the fighter can't always intercept all the monsters. Some encounters she rocks out and does most of the killing, but in others she'll take bad hits early on and spend most of the encounter dodging about or unconscious. And the warlock tends to be more effective against creatures with high AC (like soldiers).
How do you get your average 14-18 damage? Did you add Dex to it, because that would be wrong..
Right. Remember, dex bonus isn't added to twin strike's damage.
Our 3rd lvl bow ranger is effective but not dominating the party. Our 4th lvl melee ranger in the other group is a little sub-optimal when compared to the two brutal rogues.
Our 3rd lvl bow ranger is effective but not dominating the party. Our 4th lvl melee ranger in the other group is a little sub-optimal when compared to the two brutal rogues.
I definitely think the melee ranger isn't as good as the bow ranger. The main reason is such:
1) Strength is weaker than Dex. Dexterity provides bonuses to INIT and AC compared to what strength can do...its generally a better stat.
2) Low AC. Which brings up the next point. Melee rangers have terrible AC if they don't pick up Chain proficiency. In fact a houserule my group considered was dropping toughness as the melee ranger bonus feat and just given them chain proficiency as I can't see a ranger not taking it. However, even with chain they often have less AC than a bow ranger.
3) Melee vs Ranged vs Bow Ranged: If everything else is equal ranged wins, and the bow ranger has a range no other class gets even close to competing with. A bow ranger can sit at 40 squares, throw a quarry on someone, and go to town. Rogues have to be smarter and sneakier to get their SA...and will likely get it less often.
But its not just the offense. The range difference is so great monsters often simply can't hit the ranger. A rogue at 10 squares with his crossbow is open season for most ranged monster, a ranger at 20 is much harder to hit, and a ranger at 30 is generally out of range for almost all monsters.
But its not just the offense. The range difference is so great monsters often simply can't hit the ranger. A rogue at 10 squares with his crossbow is open season for most ranged monster, a ranger at 20 is much harder to hit, and a ranger at 30 is generally out of range for almost all monsters.
Being at 30 squares on a published map is practically impossible.
I could see flying rangers being an issue, but a lot if not most stuff is indoors anyway.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Regicide
Being at 30 squares on a published map is practically impossible.
Depends.
In KotS, the first section of the adventure is outdoors. It's (theoretically) possible for the terrain to give LoS to 30 squares. As I look at the maps spread out on the desk in front of me, I find that not possible without the DM expanding the map beyond the poster map borders (and not recognizing cover from trees).
After that section of the adventure, everything else is inside, and no LoS goes farter than ~10 squares. Put another way: everyone is with charging range.
To the OP: If you are finding the Bow Ranger is taking stuff down too quickly, you need to think more closely about encounter design (as has been mentioned several times above). You may also have an error on the PC's sheet calculating damage. <shrug>
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Last edited by Nail: Today....just a few minutes ago
Where p is probability to hit, d is average damage of the weapon, and q is average quarry damage.
Assuming nonmagical longbow, with 50% chance to hit, level 1, average damage is:
2p(d+q) - qp^2
1(5.5+3.5) - 3.5/4
9-7/8
8.125 damage.
13-14 is rediculous.
At level 1, your chance to hit a level 1 monster with baseline AC of 15 (14+level) should be above 50% (of course, at level 1 there aren't any level 0 monsters to fight so the average monster level will be higher than 1). An 18 Dex character with a +2 proficiency bow will have a +6 to hit, for a 60% chance to hit. A 20 Dex character (and Bow Rangers are one of the classes that can get away with a 20 the most easily) with a +2 prof bow has a +7 to hit.
Also, you haven't included crits- and note that Quarry damage is maxed on a critical hit. So if you take all of that into account, and I've done the math correctly, a 20-Dex 1st level Ranger with a Greatbow (d12 damage superior weapon) does an average of 12.315 damage per round with Twin Strike against a quarry with 15 AC.
At level 2 if you have a +1 Greatbow and take Weapon Focus your damage per round with Twin Strike against a quarry with 16 AC is already at 16.23 average damage
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