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We had a serious doubt when our Ranger was starting his Spitting Cobra Stance last game session.
I would not like to discuss the usefullness of the power or how good it is, but the official rules.
The DM and a friend decided that if the enemies acted togueder the Ranger could only shoot one of them. Say for example that 5 orcs charged the Ranger in the same initiative (becuse they rolled the same init number or becuse some delayed action and coordinated leadership).
I personally thing that the power says otherwise, basically acting togueder does not mean acting on the same "combatant’s turn".
The power states that:
"Until the stance ends, you can make a ranged basic attack as an opportunity action against any enemy (...)" (MP 47)
Here comes from the definition of Oportunity action (PHB 268):
OPPORTUNITY ACTION
✦
Once per Combatant’s Turn: You can take no
more than one opportunity action on each other
combatant’s turn. You can’t take an opportunity
action on your own turn.
So I think that the Stance could work against many enemies, no matter if they are acting on the same initiative. And I also believe that doing so would open a weird preceddent where some NPCs or PCs could counteract some well defined defense.
The best example I could think right now: Imagine all the melee PCs delaying actions and surrounding a Red Dragon in the same initiative, so the dragon could not use his tail to hit/push them.
Here comes the description of the dragon power to help the lazy fellows like myself: (MM 82)
" Tail Strike (immediate reaction, when an enemy moves to a
position where it flanks the red dragon; at-will)
The dragon attacks the enemy with its tail: reach 2; +12 vs. Reflex; 1d10 + 6 damage, and the target is pushed 1 square.
"
Considerations? Official rulings or erratas?
Thanks in advance!
Last edited by Dr_Sage; 30th June 2009 at 02:31 AM..
Reason: typos
Quickest answer is that having the same initiative number doesn't mean that they all act simultaneously - everyone still takes their turn one-by-one. You and monsters have opportunities and powers to act during other people's turns; initiative doesn't matter.
See here's something I've never understood. Why do people think that at any point two combatants can share an initiative? No option in any book allows this
I agree with the previous responses. The only way around it RAW is to ready actions: The orc readies an action to charge PlayerX when the orc leader moves forward. However, using readied actions in this way can lead to a lot of issues (e.g. bypassing fighter's combat challenge). I'm not a fan of recommending readied actions as a counter, but it does work RAW.
Let's not oversimplify.
1) If two enemies are acting on the same initiative count (assuming that's possible), they each have their own turn and thus would be subject to a ranged basic attack.
2) Where this would change would be if an enemy gave another enemy movement as a standard action - say, shift 3 - and then took its own move action. Here, you have two characters moving during one combatant's turn and so you would have to pick which one gets the free arrow or hatchet or whatever.
Similarly, if you happen to be the unfortunate soul against whom 3 orcs have readied charges triggered by a fourth orc also charging, then you're out of luck. Those readied actions are immediate reactions occuring on the final orc's actual turn so you only get to smack one as they bum rush you. Choose wisely.
I'm the friend in question who agreed with the DM, and this was the thread that led to the DM ruling the way he did: Feat question
One thing to note: before this, the DM was rolling initiative for each monster group (grunts got one, leaders got another, etc). Now he's rolling *per creature*, so readying becomes a tactic, not a default thing.
I'm the friend in question who agreed with the DM, and this was the thread that led to the DM ruling the way he did: Feat question
One thing to note: before this, the DM was rolling initiative for each monster group (grunts got one, leaders got another, etc). Now he's rolling *per creature*, so readying becomes a tactic, not a default thing.
Hehehehehehe Actually its a Daily power.. not a Feat my noobish friend
So basically so far, most people agrees that delay would not work but ready woud? Poor red dragon...
I am worried about the many cheesy and cheap examples were given over there.
Anyway I see the point of readying actions: it is generally more coordinated and less effective individually (few powers/actions includes a move and an attack). And I agree with the "hivemind" issue.
Actually I think a passive Insight check (or active with minor action) would be in order to allow PCs to perceive enemies readying actions and their intents.
I think that the paragraph on p.38 of the DMG is unfortunately misleading. While they all have the same initiative, they still take separate turns. So the Ranger still gets an OA against each one, RAW.
Here's how it goes... they each get their own turn, even if they have the same initiative. If they decide to each, say, charge in as their action, then he gets to OA each.
However, if instead all of the orcs ready an action to charge in together, then he only gets a single OA. It's otherwise all at the same turn (whichever one goes last and doesn't ready).
So probably not robbed, and it is a valid tactic for response to spitting cobra stance, though potentially one that will upset the player. I don't think it's nearly as cheesy as other stupid 'ready' tricks like readying a ranged/area attack so that it happens during someone else's turn when they can't use immediate reactions or combat challenges or lose start of turn buffs, etc. Opinions will vary.
Yep every combatant has his own turn, regardless of initiative.
I would even be wary of using readying an action to get around that, they may be acting all at the same time but still in their own turns. There is nothing in the 'ready an action' definition about having things all happen on one creatures turn. I am talking about by the RAW, it makes sense logically to me if they all ready an action to charge together.
1 - usually there is no way of act on the same turn (delaying, waiting, rolling accidentally the same init etc.)
2 - the only exception: ready an action.
Thanks!!!
There are other exceptions, like powers that grant an ally an action, and immediate actions. For instance, if an assault swordmage had marked the ranger when she fires off her opportunity attack, the swordmage could immediately teleport adjacent to the ranger and make a melee basic attack.
Considering that a charge ends your turn anyway, and a delay action resets your initiative lower than it would be had you readied i would say that the ranger was not robbed even though he should have, given the delay action, technically gotten more attacks.
In short, there was a way to do it, and the way your DM did it pretty much mimicked almost exactly the way to do it, but was not technically the right way to do it.
There are other exceptions, like powers that grant an ally an action, and immediate actions. For instance, if an assault swordmage had marked the ranger when she fires off her opportunity attack, the swordmage could immediately teleport adjacent to the ranger and make a melee basic attack.
Yes, of course. I haven't expressed myself proprerly.
If a NPC/monster granted movement to his allies during his turn and them moved toward the Ranger, technically all that would be happening in the same turn. Its crystal clear.
What I meant was that a group of monsters (orcs, goblins etc.) trying to bypass that Stance the only legal way would be ready an action and move or charge togueder. Of course If I were the DM I would only do that if the enemies had observed the Stance working for some time.
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Another interesting thing: I finnally underestood a big difference between Oportunity Action and Immediate Action.
Both have the limitation of NOT been allowed during the creature's turn, but the Immediate Action can only be used once per round.
Thats huge.
Many solo or elite monsters do funny things to PCs that engage them in melee (red dragons or bloodrager orcs for example) with various triggers but they all have something in common: usable once per combat round.
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