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Some groups will see less, but I've already seen a case where it would be 4/5 so obviously it can go higher.
I find it a little odd that it would be less, to be honest. That implies that the BRV is probably still too good if the enemies are burning through the temp hp every round, because a normal fighter would be dying.
A lot of it has to with the DM, and the rest of the party.
With some DM's ... they will NEVER ignore the fighter's mark or provoke opp attacks from the fighter, unless they have no choice (i.e. a ranged based monster next to the fighter), regardless of what happens. In these cases, it's in the best interest of the fighter to focus on their defenses because any boost to their OA/interupt isn't going to come up very often.
Other DMs will take their opportunities where they can get them, and will go after squishier targets if they get the chance. That however has to do with the fighter's AC compared to others. If the other members of the party have an AC that is 1 below the defender's, or equal/higher ... the mark makes them harder to hit and so the fighter is likely the easiest target.
Generally the fighter is trying to make themselves a blackhole for attacks, so they have to play a balancing act between making themselves hard to hit and/or hit point sponges, but being able to convince the enemy to attack them anyway with their interupts and the like. The rest of the party needs to have very bad AC, otherwise chain armor will make attacking the fighter a no brainer for anyone that is marked by him.
The Fighter in my party does 1d12+10 damage if he hits with a basic attack, which is a pretty huge deterrent. The only reason I would ignore the mark is with a Solo monster. For normal mobs the damage is just too much...
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA PCs now: Genasi Warlord 5 Human BRV Fighter 5
Posts: 8,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garthanos
So is the rare brv damage boost +1 worth the loss of a continuous all the time gain of 1 AC for the scale user?
Right. That's the question I had immediately after reading the errata. Now that I've seen it (only once!) in play, it's become the central question for my human BRV fighter. (Dwarven BRV Fighters have more incentive to stay with hammer and chain, IMO. I'm ignoring the dwarven case.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garthanos
Did I just die from circular logic?
<chuckle>
Quote:
Originally Posted by keterys
Scale: +1 AC, 1 less check penalty
Chain: +2 damage part of the time - probably between 1/4 and 1/2 of attacks depending on build and party, more threatening OAs and challenges, greater perceived incentive to attack the defender
It's a real choice. I'd not be surprised if it should be increased by tier, though, like most other damage boosts.
First: The damage boost DOES NOT scale with tier. So we can just throw that out completely. Red herring.
Second: I think the chain armor benefit (+1 or +2 damage if you have THPs) might happen 33% of the time in our group. That's in line with keterys estimate. In our group, the "chain damage benefit" will happen mostly when our warlord uses Commander's Strike -- the THPs simply won't be there by the time my turn comes 'round again (as DrSpunj pointed out above).
Third: For a non-dwarven BRV fighter, the numbers are stacked against chain armor. The ~33% chance for extra damage is not worth the -1 AC and -1 checks....and it gets worse above Heroic Tier. ...And the headache of having to keep track of when to apply it is - IMO, obviously - a huge strike against it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garthanos
1/4 to 1/2 sounds like a very high estimate... but I would find it reasonably worth it if that is the case. I hate things that are so tactically dependent they are either worthless or great... swingy either by dice or circumstance.
I think 50% sounds high. But maybe I'll "play-test" it another gaming session, and see how things shake out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by keterys
I find it a little odd that it would be less, to be honest. That implies that the BRV is probably still too good if the enemies are burning through the temp hp every round, because a normal fighter would be dying.
Aw, come on. Fighters are built to be in the thick of it. It's not at all surprising that a fighter is getting hit nearly every round, and that's for over 4 points of damage, if not for over 8 points of damage.
Auras, on-going damage, etc? Surely your fighter is getting hit with these....
__________________ - Nail
Last edited by Nail: Today....just a few minutes ago
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA PCs now: Genasi Warlord 5 Human BRV Fighter 5
Posts: 8,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by WalterKovacs
A lot of it has to with the DM, and the rest of the party.
Very true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WalterKovacs
With some DM's ... they will NEVER ignore the fighter's mark or provoke opp attacks from the fighter, unless they have no choice (i.e. a ranged based monster next to the fighter), regardless of what happens. In these cases, it's in the best interest of the fighter to focus on their defenses because any boost to their OA/interupt isn't going to come up very often.
In the games I play in (or DM), what you've said above is what happens. It's simply not worth it for a marked monster to ignore the fighter, BRV or no.
__________________ - Nail
Last edited by Nail: Today....just a few minutes ago
Aw, come on. Fighters are built to be in the thick of it. It's not at all surprising that a fighter is getting hit nearly every round, and that's for over 4 points of damage, if not for over 8 points of damage.
Of course they are - and if the fighter has 35 hp, BRV gets 4 temp a round, and is hit for 7 damage a round, the normal fighter drops in 5 rounds, the BRV in 12 rounds. It should be more likely that it's bursty - the fighter gets missed some rounds entirely, takes a bucket of hp other rounds, etc. Either way it would be hard to argue that the BRV needs any other bonus, at all, if his temp hp are making that strong of a difference.
Friend of mine was at a table with a new BRV fighter who apparently had temp hp most rounds, such that it was actually feeding his bloodclaw weapon much more effectively than the other way (in which he'd have taken damage, when hit with less temp). The BRV fighter was one of two defenders in the group of six, however, and that's a very different state from a 3-person party with one defender, even though the ratios are the same.
When I come to think of it, I house ruled away the armor restriction from the damage bonus, since I would NEVER use it on a tank as it is now.
In other words, in the group I am DM-ing the Dwarven BRV Fighter is using Plate armor. (Before the nerf he had to use chain mail to get the temp hp.)
It is a bit funny, our Half-Orc Barbarian who started with 18 str/dex,13con tanks nearly as well as the fighter (he can take the damage). If I have the option to attack any other striker - I do.
It is a bit funny, our Half-Orc Barbarian who started with 18 str/dex,13con tanks nearly as well as the fighter (he can take the damage). If I have the option to attack any other striker - I do.
To be fair tho, Barbarians (and Avengers) aren't exactly designed to be squishy strikers. They're both make very good damage-sponges by design, even if they can't 'hold agro'.
To be fair tho, Barbarians (and Avengers) aren't exactly designed to be squishy strikers. They're both make very good damage-sponges by design, even if they can't 'hold agro'.
Hey! Someone is playing World of Warcraft.
PS: My characted there was also a warrior... hold aggro there was my challenge.
Last edited by Dr_Sage; 14th July 2009 at 06:59 AM..
Reason: typos
One important thing to remember is that _any_ source of THP is enough to trigger the bonus damage. So, powers that give the user THP as a minor could be used first. Any round the character spends an action point for a second attack would give the damage bonus on the second attack (assuming the first hit and/or was an invigorating power).
Having a leader that gives frequent THPs, like a Valorous Bard or an Artificer would allow the trigger to apply more often as well.
Having a leader that gives frequent THPs, like a Valorous Bard or an Artificer would allow the trigger to apply more often as well.
Good point that - did a module recently with the newly revised artificer, and it can get insane. The fighter in the party had temp hp from me most of the adventure - almost a shame he wasn't a battlerager for the damage bonus. There were two other wardens to spread the damage around, though. They all did very well at not getting hurt in that situation.
So, that's actually perhaps a critical point - the chain-wearing damage-dealing BRV may be a really good pick for _second_ defender, rather than primary.
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA PCs now: Genasi Warlord 5 Human BRV Fighter 5
Posts: 8,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by keterys
Either way it would be hard to argue that the BRV needs any other bonus, at all, if his temp hp are making that strong of a difference.
THPs are a good deal for the BRV fighter, I agree. My point isn't that: instead, it's "why bother with chain?" If you want the BRV fighter in chain, there'd better be a cookie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by keterys
The BRV fighter was one of two defenders in the group of six, however, and that's a very different state from a 3-person party with one defender, even though the ratios are the same.
True! Maybe I need to with hold judgement until we get our 6 person party back (next week, I hope?).
Quote:
Originally Posted by keterys
So, that's actually perhaps a critical point - the chain-wearing damage-dealing BRV may be a really good pick for _second_ defender, rather than primary.
Interesting! Most would say fighter is a good primary defender...who would you suggest takes that mantle from the BRV fighter?
__________________ - Nail
Last edited by Nail: Today....just a few minutes ago
Guardian fighter, non-chain BRV fighter or Warden, say? I tend to think of swordmages as second defenders but maybe a shielding swordmage too.
Assault swordmages, tempest fighters, chain-BRVs, greatweapon fighters all strike me as great second defenders since they can fill another role quite well.
I'm not really sure what to think of paladins, in case you're wondering at their exclusion.
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA PCs now: Genasi Warlord 5 Human BRV Fighter 5
Posts: 8,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by keterys
I'm not really sure what to think of paladins, in case you're wondering at their exclusion.
Nor am I. My daughter and another friend have played paladins....and it's still not clear to me that they fill their role (defender/leader) well enough. Tertiary defender?
__________________ - Nail
Last edited by Nail: Today....just a few minutes ago
) in play, it's become the central question for my human BRV fighter. (Dwarven BRV Fighters have more incentive to stay with hammer and chain, IMO. I'm ignoring the dwarven case.)
Fighters are built to be in the thick of it. It's not at all surprising that a fighter is getting hit nearly every round, and that's for over 4 points of damage, if not for over 8 points of damage.
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