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"When wearing light armor or chainmail, you gain
a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close
weapon attacks whenever you have temporary hit
points. "
Do I have to have the temporary hit points before I roll to hit in order to gain the damage bonus? If so, why?
I believe you do, but I can't figure out the why part.
There is no clear rule as to when you acquire the temp hp for hitting, in relation to dealing damage, so expect some table variation.
That said, the intent seems obvious. If they had intended for the damage bonus to apply on the attack that generated the temp hp itself, they'd not have had the temp hp required clause at all. It otherwise only makes a minor difference on, say, dailies that deal half damage on miss, but the potential gain from the complication would be inordinately small and would suggest that far more text should be added to clarify if that was desirable.
There is no clear rule as to when you acquire the temp hp for hitting, in relation to dealing damage, so expect some table variation.
That said, the intent seems obvious. If they had intended for the damage bonus to apply on the attack that generated the temp hp itself, they'd not have had the temp hp required clause at all. It otherwise only makes a minor difference on, say, dailies that deal half damage on miss, but the potential gain from the complication would be inordinately small and would suggest that far more text should be added to clarify if that was desirable.
But if you only get the damage afterwards, then you'll lose the temp hp before your next round. It seems very likely that the writers of the errata forgot the temp hp requirement on the bonus damage altogether, as neither option works well. I'd call this a case where both RAW and RAI are unclear. Neither option is overpowering, so that provides no guidance.
(I might argue for making it bonus damage if NO temp hp, but that is clear houseruling)
The _potential_ to lose the temp hp is there, of course, but that just encourages your enemies to attack you to deny you the damage bonus and there's no guarantee they'll succeed. In that way, the bonus is working 'well', as you say.
If they do happen to get through the temp hp, then good thing you just got a full slate when you hit. When you still have the temp hp, you get the damage bonus 'instead' as compensation.
Now, it is _entirely_ possible they meant to take the clause out entirely. If you like it that way, run with it and take it out entirely. If you keep the clause, it should apply when you start the attack with temp hp.
The _potential_ to lose the temp hp is there, of course, but that just encourages your enemies to attack you to deny you the damage bonus and there's no guarantee they'll succeed. In that way, the bonus is working 'well', as you say.
If they do happen to get through the temp hp, then good thing you just got a full slate when you hit. When you still have the temp hp, you get the damage bonus 'instead' as compensation.
I want to say it again ... I love the shiney new defendery cast that BRV now has instead of being a route in to strikerhood. those who would like the bonus a little more reliable or with a throw back strikerish cast... might have to pull in a house rule like these feats.
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA PCs now: Genasi Warlord 5 Human BRV Fighter 5
Posts: 8,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by anithri
"Do I have to have the temporary hit points before I roll to hit in order to gain the damage bonus?
As much as I'd love to follow the literal RAW here, it's pretty clear you have to have the THPs before you roll the attack. keterys has the right of it.
Given how fights usually go down, the BRV fighter will lose his THPs 4 times out of 5 before his turn comes 'round again, and thus not have the +1 (or +2, with hammers) damage.
__________________ - Nail
Last edited by Nail: Today....just a few minutes ago
As much as I'd love to follow the literal RAW here, it's pretty clear you have to have the THPs before you roll the attack. keterys has the right of it.
Given how fights usually go down, the BRV fighter will lose his THPs 4 times out of 5 before his turn comes 'round again, and thus not have the +1 (or +2, with hammers) damage.
yup... if you crunch an opponent the attack against the next adversary is likely to be boosted or in an opponent thinks it might be a better idea to leave you alone cause you seem a bit of a sponge absorbing all of his damage.... its an extra bit more to smack him with so he pays attention. If you get an attack opportunity that is out of turn... then that is somewhat likely to be boosted. Way more defender... you must keep hitting me or you will regret it.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is how Opportunity attacks/combat challenge attacks fit in with this.....and to me this seems to be an interesting dynamic to consider. When the BR has temp hp, his OA/CC are bumped up just a little, not so much that its going to send anyone over the moon, but enough that the monster has 1 more reason not to ignore the defender. Likewise, OA's/CC will now give him temp hp, which again forces the monsters to attack him or else he'll get pumped up and is much more likely to have his extra damage boost on his turn. The bonus damage isn't really a selling point of the class feature, but it is nice enough that people who want to wear chain and use an axe will consider it, and figure out ways to benefit from it.
Anyway, the more the enemy prevents the defender from using his powers, the more the enemy is doing what the defender wants them to.
Anyway, the more the enemy prevents the defender from using his powers, the more the enemy is doing what the defender wants them to.
I do like how my Empathic Vigor feat takes that a step further.... In what feels like a less passive way. (if you hurt my friends you will regret it -- not just if you fail to hurt me). Actually I can almost picture the Empathic Vigor boost to Dragonborn for whom its a matter of honor, or for Half-Elves for whom empathy seems very appropriate. (Deva fighters seem so unlikely the other options might have to be included)
Last edited by Garthanos; 8th July 2009 at 03:08 AM..
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA PCs now: Genasi Warlord 5 Human BRV Fighter 5
Posts: 8,000
FWIW, I played my BRV (Chain+hammer) Fighter last night in 2 combats...and got the damage bonus from THPs about three times. (Our warlord deserves the credit for making 2 out of three of those happen, IIRC, from Commander's Strike.) Enemies would burn through my THPs before my turn came around again, and so no BRV damage bonus.
As I thought, the damage bonus is not significant, and it's not really worth staying in chain for.
Ironically, upgrading to scale (or plate) will mean I'm more likely to keep my THPs round-to-round, and thus would be more likely to benefit from an ability which relied on retaining THPs - like the BRV damage bonus. :P
__________________ - Nail
Last edited by Nail: Today....just a few minutes ago
Nail - how much were you using invigorating powers? How much were monsters you haven't marked also fighting you?
I ask because the BRV I DM for would have had the damage bonus for most of his attacks in the two combats he did (like, not for 5 attacks of 15 or so, and he could have changed his actions to get it on two of those if he cared). He wore plate so it didn't matter, but the feat and AC bonus wasn't really doing that much for him. In fact, he actually failed some Athletics checks by 1 and I don't think any enemy missed him by 1 or 2 that night, and a couple enemies did just avoid him to target easier targets so... I think it was a net hindrance. He really quite likes invigorating powers, though, so he always had a bucket of temp hp.
Intuitively I feel even for BRV damage boost to do its job well - aiding the Defender role - a boost seems appropriate.
Just starting it at +2 and +3 and reducing that by 1 if you are wearing scale and 2 if you are wearing plate.
I know there are folks that think the thp are enough but... a meat shield works better with a threat factor.
I'm pretty sure that battlerager is still pretty good, without adding extra feats and bumping its bonuses.
Remember, you're just trading a single +1 attack with 1h or 2h weapons to get the battlerage benefits.
Ideally, all 3 armor types - chain, scale, and plate - will be a totally valid choice, none inherently stronger than the others. It's worth remembering that plate does cost a feat, so chain + feat and scale + feat are what we should be comparing.
Nail - how much were you using invigorating powers? How much were monsters you haven't marked also fighting you?
As the DM for the adventures a couple nights ago I'll jump in and try to answer this. Nail used Crushing Surge pretty much any time an at-will was used; basically every round he wasn't using an Encounter or Daily power. At level 5 that's about half of attacks for these two combats which I think lasted 6-7 rounds each.
We had a new low in the "number of players who made it to the session" this past Wednesday, a whopping 3, so it was [b]Nail[b]'s BRV Fighter, a Battle Cleric and a TacLord on the PC team.
For the first battle they were up against a level 9 brute, a level 4 brute and a level 4 artillerist, so only 1 foe apiece. All 3 PCs charged up and Nail was able to keep at least 1 foe marked each round, sometimes two with the TacLord's Commander's Strike and other attack granting abilities. He picked on the big guy most rounds and any temporary hp he had were generally stripped away by the big guy so I think he only got the BRV damage bonus once. There weren't really too many non-marked monsters that could attack him in this battle.
For the second battle the threesome were on a rocky ledge and attacked by 3 Fire Bats (level 5) and a Firelasher (level 8 IIRC). They stayed pretty clumped up surprisingly which allowed a lot of fun strafing runs for me throughout the battle. That meant that he was taking at least one or two extra hits most rounds from non-marked enemies. The only times he got the damage bonus here I think was due to the TacLord's powers.
Quote:
Ideally, all 3 armor types - chain, scale, and plate - will be a totally valid choice, none inherently stronger than the others. It's worth remembering that plate does cost a feat, so chain + feat and scale + feat are what we should be comparing.
Right, so with the current BRV errata do you feel that chain & scale are reasonably balanced choices for the BRV Fighter? I'm not convinced they aren't, but I do feel the funky chain-related-BRV-tempHP bonus isn't really worth the bother of the bookkeeping it requires. Previously the bonus was always relevant, that is, when Nail hit something the extra damage automatically kicked in, so he could more easily keep track of his damage bonus by figuring it in all the time. Now it's another thing to pay attention to each & every round. "Hey! I hit! So that's +8, oh wait, I have some temp hp so add the extra..."
Bleah. I wish the bonus was somehow...cleaner to implement, less fussiness required. I *do* think the BRV changes are good, that the errata themselves are big step forward. WotC did a great job, IMHO, addressing these issues. But this little bit seems to sit funny with me; I think it needs tweaked somehow, just not sure how.
The thing that complicates BRV analysis for me is Brash Strike. e.g.
Weapon talent (2h) fighter with scale and fullblade, using Reaping Strike vs.
BRV fighter with scale, heavy shield, and waraxe, using Brash Strike.
Same to-hit, same AC (though the BRV is better against enemies other than his target). The weapon talent fighter gets high crit and +str damage on a miss; the BRV fighter gets THP and +con damage on a hit.
I'd say this comes out in favor of the BRV fighter. However, it's only for at-wills that the BRV fighter can make up the to-hit. On everything else, it's back to the balance of to-hit vs. THP.
Battlerage Vigor is a Fighter shtick trying to create a "damned if you do, more damned if you don't" situation for a monster.
The Fighter gets Temporary Hit Points, which reduce the amount of damage the monster can deal to him. Yet if a Mark ignores the fighter he'll suffer from -2 to hit and incur extra attacks. Furthermore, failing to strike the Battlerager means the Battlerager does more damage AND need not use an Invigorating power on his next attack. That'll open you up for even more pain from Brash Strike.
Basically the order of battle should go like this:
- Fighter: Invigorating Strike
- Gain THP
- Monster: Attacks
- If hit, Fighter uses Invigorating Strike again (restoring THP)
- If missed, Fighter uses Brash Strike (dealing more Damage)
It works itself pretty elegantly, at least as it pertains to one-on-one slug-fests between the Fighter and his mark using At-Will powers.
I'm pretty sure that battlerager is still pretty good, without adding extra feats and bumping its bonuses.
Remember, you're just trading a single +1 attack with 1h or 2h weapons to get the battlerage benefits.
Ideally, all 3 armor types - chain, scale, and plate - will be a totally valid choice, none inherently stronger than the others. It's worth remembering that plate does cost a feat, so chain + feat and scale + feat are what we should be comparing.
You are right and the value of feats is a tough one to account for..
Yes we are comparing
plate alone(it cost a feat).
scale+feat
chain+feat+brv damage boost.
Like the barbarian multiclass feat which basically gives me+2 damage...for 1/2 to 1/3 the time(depending on encounter freq)... plus a nice skill... tons of bang and flavor for my feat buck.
So is the rare brv damage boost +1 (ignore axe synergy for the moment because that has its own cost as does the mobility loss from chain.)
Worth the loss of a continuous all the time gain of 1 AC for the scale user?
For many folk the improvement from chain to scale is worth a feat, if that is still true here. then that damage boost needs to be valued compared to other feats (but we cant value it that way... because .. you are only giving up something approximately like 1 nice feat (expertise?) for the entirety of your BRV... so the damage boost alone probably should come out looking shabby unless you also didn't get thp when wearing that scale armor.
I think I am convinced the damage boost might just be appropriately shabby(it seems likely they undermined it on purpose while keeping what it did cleverly the same... but now when it does its thing is more defender like).
If the damage boost is appropriately shabby .. then the scale armor now is more useful than chain..
Scale: +1 AC, 1 less check penalty
Chain: +2 damage part of the time - probably between 1/4 and 1/2 of attacks depending on build and party, more threatening OAs and challenges, greater perceived incentive to attack the defender
It's a real choice. I'd not be surprised if it should be increased by tier, though, like most other damage boosts.
1/4 to 1/2 sounds like a very high estimate... but I would find it reasonably worth it if that is the case. I hate things that are so tactically dependent they are either worthless or great... swingy either by dice or circumstance.
(We have to have some of it or there wouldn't be interesting ie real choices)
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