Healing Guides

[Ki Ryn]

The Spirit Tempest (Shaman) path feature "Spirit Guides" (PHB2, p.135) reads

... any ally adjacent to or within a conjuration or a zone...

Does "any ally" mean "any one ally" or does it mean "all allies"?

I would assume it meant everyone, but the ability is an extension of Healing Spirit Power (p. 120) which is very specifically just one ally.

[Flipguarder]

From the context and the sentence structure it seems very clear to me that "any ally" means "any one ally:. They would say all allies if they meant that.

[Ki Ryn]

And to others I'm sure exactly the opposite is "very clear".

Are there other examples with similar wording where the meaning is more explicit?

[Flipguarder]

"Healing Guides (11th level): When you restore
hit points with your healing spirit power, any ally
adjacent to or within a conjuration or a zone that you
created with a shaman power or a shaman paragon
path power also regains hit points as if he or she were
adjacent to your spirit companion."

The fact of the matter is that both uses of "ally" ( in the beginning, then in pronoun form) are in the singular. Again, if they meant "all" the would say it like this.


"Healing Guides (11th level): When you restore
hit points with your healing spirit power, all allies
adjacent to or within a conjuration or a zone that you
created with a shaman power or a shaman paragon
path power also regains hit points as if they were
adjacent to your spirit companion."

There is no way (from what I can see) to interpret that feature as though it affects more than one ally at a time. It very specifically says "any" when it could just as easily said "all"

[Kordeth]

Originally Posted by Flipguarder

The fact of the matter is that both uses of "ally" ( in the beginning, then in pronoun form) are in the singular. Again, if they meant "all" the would say it like this.

All descriptions of targeted effects in 4E are in the singular. Compare, for example, blinding barrage: Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and the target is blinded until the end of your next turn. It's singular, even though the power affects multiple creatures.

Compare also bloody path: "You can move your speed. Every enemy that can make an opportunity attack against you as a result of this movement attacks itself with its opportunity attack, rather than you. Any enemy that can make an opportunity attack against you during this movement must do so. It cannot refrain from making the attack to avoid harming itself."

Would you say that power means only one monster must attack you?

The word "any" means "one, some, or all, indiscriminately." If it meant one ally, it would say one ally.

[Kordeth]

Originally Posted by Ki Ryn

Are there other examples with similar wording where the meaning is more explicit?

Searchable pdfs are a wonderful thing. In addition to bloody path I already quoted, here's a few more, all from PHB 1:

Garrote Grip (rogue 15): Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and you grab the target. Until the target escapes, you have cover, and any melee attack or ranged attack that misses you hits the target instead.

Minions of Malbolge (warlock 19): Effect: You conjure flames in the shape of diabolic imps that appear at your feet. You gain 25 temporary hit points. Any enemy that enters a square adjacent to you takes 2d10 fire damage and is pushed 3 squares. This effect applies once per creature per round. It ends when you have no temporary hit points remaining.

Sunder armor (warlord 7): Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage. Until the end of your next turn, any attack roll against the target can score a critical hit on a roll of 18–20.

It's pretty clear in all of these contacts that "any" is a collective noun, and refers to, well, any qualifying effect.

[Flipguarder]

First off blinding barrage is a power, this is a path feature. The fact that it targets multiple creatures is precedent to believe the effect that happens on an effect is present on multiple targets.

As for bloody path it says "Every enemy" indicating that it targets multiple people. This has no such precedent.

Yes "any" can mean multiple. But all other issues like the one presented have other words or phrases if they mean more than one.

[On Puget Sound]

Bank Robber : "Everone on the floor! Anyone who moves dies!" Does he mean he will only kill one person who moves? If you're the second person to move, are you safe? Of course not, he means he will kill any and all people who move.

Football rules: "The quarterback may pass the ball to any eligible receiver." Can he pass the ball to more than one person? Of course not, he only has one ball to pass.

English is funny that way. "Any" is indeterminate. Even "anyone" does not always mean "any ONE".

[Erisea]

It doesn't matter; Healing Guides means that any ally that meets the conditions can be treated "as if he or she were adjacent to your spirit" for Healing Spirit. Whether this power means one ally or all allies, Healing Spirit still specifies "one ally adjacent to your spirit", so even if all of your allies were adjacent to your spirit or in a zone and counted "as if" adjacent to your spirit, only one gets the heal.

If there are other abilities that modify Healing Spirit to allow multiple targets to regain hit points if adjacent to your spirit (I don't know if there are, I don't play a shaman), then it becomes important, and I would rule that the any here would be inclusive.

[Ki Ryn]

I just read through the abilities again and came to that same conclusion. "Any ally" does indeed mean "All allies". All allies are potential beneficiaries of Healing Spirit - and Healing Spirit then specifies that you choose one of those potential beneficiaries to actually be healed.

[boar]

Originally Posted by Flipguarder

From the context and the sentence structure it seems very clear to me that "any ally" means "any one ally:. They would say all allies if they meant that.

You're incorrect. If the law says, "Any person out past curfew will be prosecuted," do you believe the police will only prosecute the first person they catch and ignore everyone else?

From the context and the sentence structure it is clear and unequivocal that the feature applies to all allies. The sentence is setting up a RULE, and anyone (yes, anyone!) who meets the trigger condition of that rule will experience the result.

[Flipguarder]

Then why doesn't it say this?

"Healing Guides (11th level): When you restore
hit points with your healing spirit power, all allies
adjacent to or within a conjuration or a zone that you
created with a shaman power or a shaman paragon
path power also regains hit points as if they were
adjacent to your spirit companion."

Using the words any instead of all, and he/she instead of they indicates that it was meant for one rather than all.

It's like saying (hypothetical time)

"Any family member may attend your ceremony and he/she will be seated near your place in the line."

Would you assume from reading this that you can invite ALL your family to the ceremony? It's the same sentence structure and uses the same words.

[WalterKovacs]

Originally Posted by Flipguarder

It's like saying (hypothetical time)

"Any family member may attend your ceremony and he/she will be seated near your place in the line."

Would you assume from reading this that you can invite ALL your family to the ceremony? It's the same sentence structure and uses the same words.

Would you assume you are only allowed to invite one family member?

One thing no one seems to be mentioning:

"Healing Guides (11th level): When you restore
hit points with your healing spirit power, any ally
adjacent to or within a conjuration or a zone that you
created with a shaman power or a shaman paragon
path power also regains hit points as if he or she were
adjacent to your spirit companion."

The word also is in there. They don't just regain hit points as if they were adjacent, they ALSO regain hit points as if they were adjacent.

Another thing. Yes, they could have said "all allies ...", but then again they could have said "any one ally ..." Then again, because this only applies to some allies (the ones that are in the right places), all allies may have been considered confusing for some (does it have to be all or nothing, what happens if there is only one ally, etc).

[Ki Ryn]

(can't find the Delete button)

[Ki Ryn]

As the quote up above says, any ally regains hit points as if he or she were
adjacent to your spirit companion. Well, if they were adjacent to your spirit companion, they would regain hit points only if they were the (single) target designated to do so.

To paraphrase, Healing Spirit says "one ally adjacent to your spirt companion is healed" and Healing Guides says "any ally in a zone is considered adjacent".

Whether "any ally" is singular or plural, the result is that only one person is going to get that extra healing.

[WalterKovacs]

Originally Posted by Ki Ryn

As the quote up above says, any ally regains hit points as if he or she were
adjacent to your spirit companion. Well, if they were adjacent to your spirit companion, they would regain hit points only if they were the (single) target designated to do so.

To paraphrase, Healing Spirit says "one ally adjacent to your spirt companion is healed" and Healing Guides says "any ally in a zone is considered adjacent".

Whether "any ally" is singular or plural, the result is that only one person is going to get that extra healing.

If only one person is getting the extra healing ... why are they 'also' getting it, as per the text of the paragon path feature?

[Flipguarder]

because you heal someone and someone else ALSO gets healed. That's what the path feature does. What we are discussing is whether or not ALL allies are affected or one besides the person you heal. Its at least two people receiving healing, otherwise the path feature does nothing.

[Ki Ryn]

The "regains hit points as if he or she were adjacent to your spirit companion" indicates that people benefiting from Healing Guides are treated as if they were adjacent to your spirit companion.

So what happens to everyone adjacent to your spirit companion when you use Healing Spirit? One of them regains a posative number of hit points and the rest gain zero hit points.



Either way, a few more words in that power description would be useful...


I'm really new to 4th Ed. Does one option or the other seem more balanced? Since Healing Spirit can be used twice per encounter, I think there is a huge difference in the healing output between the two interpretations. Does a single target seem really weak for a path power? On the other hand, does letting potentially EVERYONE get that secondary healing seem too good to be true?

[Kordeth]

Originally Posted by Ki Ryn

The "regains hit points as if he or she were adjacent to your spirit companion" indicates that people benefiting from Healing Guides are treated as if they were adjacent to your spirit companion.

So what happens to everyone adjacent to your spirit companion when you use Healing Spirit? One of them regains a posative number of hit points and the rest gain zero hit points.

The feature doesn't say "is treated as adjacent to your spirit companion," it specifically says "also regains hit points as if...." It seems pretty clear to me the intent of the power is that any and all characters adjacent to or within conjurations or zones you created with shaman powers get the extra healing.

[Ki Ryn]

No opinions on the balance eh? I was hoping that might shed some light on the intent here.