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I'm building a Halfling Rogue (Artful Dodger) who will be in a group with a Warlord who likes to use Commander's Strike. Since I will be making lots of melee basic attacks but have a low strength, I will definitely take Melee training.
Originally, I was going to take Deft Strike, but then I thought "Is there any situation where Deft Strike gives me something that a charge with melee basic attack doesn't?"
Assume for the sake of argument that my at-wills are Deft Strike and Sly Flourish. Here are the tricky scenarios that MIGHT justify having Deft Strike, with the actions I might take.
1. Move action doesn't get me close enough to the opponent:
- Use charge to close the gap, get +1 to hit, or
- Use ranged Sly Flourish, get +Cha damage, or
- Use Deft Strike, no additional benefit
2. One square away from the opponent (too close to charge):
- Use ranged Sly Flourish, get +Cha damage, or
- Shift one square, then use melee Sly Flourish, get +Cha damage
- Use Deft Strike, no additional benefit
3. Dazed, one square away from the opponent (too close to charge):
- Use ranged Sly Flourish, get +Cha damage
- Use Deft Strike, no additional benefit
4. Dazed, one square away from the opponent (too close to charge) and with an adjacent opponent threatening an OA if I use a ranged attack:
- Use ranged Sly Flourish, get +Cha damage, risk an OA
- Use Deft Strike, no additional benefit or risk
#4 is the only case I can think of for which Deft Strike has an advantage, but even that advantage is small. As a Halfling Artful Dodger, my AC against OAs is sky high. Anyway, it won't come up often.
One reason I have heard to use Deft Strike is to preserve combat advantage when attacking from concealment. But does not a charge attack have the same advantage? Also, it combat advantage is just not that hard to get for a Halfling Artful Dodger -- you move where you want, when you want, and almost never get hit.
Just so we're clear you are saying that a feat choice makes a power choice redundant. That is a reasonable situation because feats are generally considered more powerful overall than a power.
Also in my games you need a line of effect to charge (with exceptions made for obstacles that can be avoided/destroyed with skills). I never liked the 4e charge mechanic.
You're also in a special situation by having a warlord in the party. The average rogue probably won't make that many basic attacks, so Melee Training isn't worth it. Deft Strike is still a decent at-will in its own right.
I am saying this completely from memory, so I could be wrong.
Presume you take melee training (for the boone you'll get from the warlord's commanders strike, etc)...
The benefits that I can think of from Deft Strike are things that you mostly touched on -- the added movement as part of the attack. So if you only have an action, or need to cover more distance for that 'perfect' positioning.
The other benefit (again, going from memory) is that deft strike also works on ranged weapons. So if you were going to throw a dagger (i.e. not wanting to get close to an aura monsters or can't get close due to obstacles) then that is a situation where deft strike would offer an advantage that melee training would not.
Edit Addition: Though seeing how sly flourish is your other at-will, then that would cover the ranged attack benefit. So between melee basic training and sly flourish you would have your bases covered for the majority of cases you are worried about. Sure there is bound to be a random time something happens where you say "oh, deft strike might have worked here" but that will be some small percentage where you might get more mileage out of another at-will if there is something that has caught your eye...
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Last edited by fba827; 16th July 2009 at 07:24 PM..
How is your group handling the rules for charging? In many groups, you cannot charge unless each square of movement brings you closer to the enemy. Thus, you cannot charge from around a corner. Since you need to be around a corner for stealth to work, deft strike can be a consistent way to attack with CA from range. It was our rogue's MVP in a lot of battles.
Deft Strike still does a lot of stuff that a charge does not, even if you have Melee Training. Deft Strike can be used to make a ranged attack. A charge can't. A charge ends your turn. Deft Strike does not. A charge requires that you move at least two squares. Deft Strike does not. A charge requires that you move directly to the closest space from which you can attack the target. Deft Strike does not. Melee Training may make other rogue at-will attacks more attractive than Deft Strike, but it's not exactly obsolete just because the feat exists.
Since you have melee training and sly flourish, deft strike is limited to a small number of "might be useful here" situations. I'd definitely recommend another at-will.
If you sometimes have a hard time hitting targets, Piercing Strike gives you another defense to go after which should normally be easier to hit by 2, give or take a bit depending on the monster type. If you've trained in intimidate, Disheartening Strike is a nice option as well, and is one that helps the rest of the party out. [You have a dagger, it seems, so I'm not sure if you have problems with hitting enough that you'd really want piercing strike, and as a charismatic rogue you may have intimidate trained, so Disheartening is probably the best option].
Note that there are several feats that alter Deft Strike. Some let you move *after* the attack, others give you a shift instead of a move, or give you a bonus if you don't move, etc, etc.
With so many at-will-altering feats, it's worth looking over which ones can be used with your available at-wills.
A lot of your scenarios ignore the advantages of Deft Strike, when it could be useful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestidigitalis
1. Move action doesn't get me close enough to the opponent:
- Use charge to close the gap, get +1 to hit, or
- Use ranged Sly Flourish, get +Cha damage, or
- Use Deft Strike, no additional benefit
Maybe, or you could use the movement from Deft Strike to get out of cover, make the Deft Strike at range, then use your move action to get back behind cover, regain stealth and ensure Sneak Attack damage.
Or you could move to one square away, then Deft Strike to move into a square that isn't the closest adjacent square in order to get flanking. Charges require you go to the closest square you can attack from, which may or may not be the square you can get a flank from. Deft Strike increases the chances that you can get a flank, and/or allows popping in and out of concealment for Stealth fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestidigitalis
2. One square away from the opponent (too close to charge):
- Use ranged Sly Flourish, get +Cha damage, or
- Shift one square, then use melee Sly Flourish, get +Cha damage
- Use Deft Strike, no additional benefit
Or Deft Strike to move two squares, get in flank for Sneak Attack, and still have a move action left over to shift or run away (possibly into a hiding place for Stealth).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestidigitalis
3. Dazed, one square away from the opponent (too close to charge):
- Use ranged Sly Flourish, get +Cha damage
- Use Deft Strike, no additional benefit
Deft strike to reposition yourself either for a flank or farther away from the enemy that dazed you, as needed (and depending on whether you have CA).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestidigitalis
4. Dazed, one square away from the opponent (too close to charge) and with an adjacent opponent threatening an OA if I use a ranged attack:
- Use ranged Sly Flourish, get +Cha damage, risk an OA
- Use Deft Strike, no additional benefit or risk
For a Halfling Artful Dodger rogue, provoking an OA is not a fear. You're more likely to deliberately provoke OAs so the party Defender can counterattack than you are to try to avoid OAs. You're looking at a +5ish bonus versus OAs to begin with, probably higher if you have a decent Cha and/or Defensive Mobility. OAs are your friend, not your enemy.
So deft Strike in this case is useful specifically to provoke the enemy (if there's a friendly fighter around) and still get a flank on the enemy you're attacking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestidigitalis
One reason I have heard to use Deft Strike is to preserve combat advantage when attacking from concealment. But does not a charge attack have the same advantage?
No, because charging ends your turn, preventing you from hiding when you're done charging. It goes like this: sit in hiding, leap out with Deft Strike, attack with CA, use your move action to return to hiding. Doesn't work on a charge.
In general, you seem to be downplaying the value of positioning. Which is a belief you should reconsider in a party with a rogue and a warlord: both are classes that need to pay attention to the arrangement of pieces on the battelemat, and use that arrangement to their advantage. Rogues typically need to flank or obtain stealth to get CA for their all-important Sneak Attack. Many of the warlord's bonuses come in the form of repositioning abilities, which might seem useless if you're ignoring the battlemat and just looking at the numbers on the sheets. It's not.
But if you try out Deft Strike and don't like it, swap it out for Piercing Strike or the Rattling one from Martial Power, by all means.
Maybe I should have saved some space and stuck with "What is Deft Strike good for? If I have Melee Training, can't I get much of the same effect by charging?"
I keep forgetting that charging ends the turn. I'm not sure, I think my DMs may be forgetting to enforce it. Then again, I may be ending my turns with charges, just by coincidence.
In fact, I'm keenly aware of the importance of positioning. It's just that as a Halfling Artful Dodger, I don't expect to have any serious difficulty getting into position for CA once I get into close combat.
Anyway, the point was that I thought I might be missing something, and you have all kindly shouted "YES!".
1. Move action doesn't get me close enough to the opponent:
- Use charge to close the gap, get +1 to hit, or
- Use ranged Sly Flourish, get +Cha damage, or
- Use Deft Strike, flank and get sneak attack (well, assuming you were a couple of squares out: note that you usually don't get much of a choice with charge)
2. One square away from the opponent (too close to charge):
- Use ranged Sly Flourish, get +Cha damage, or
- Shift one square, then use melee Sly Flourish, get +Cha damage
- Use Deft Strike, flank and get sneak attack and then shift away again
3. Dazed, one square away from the opponent (too close to charge):
- Use ranged Sly Flourish, get +Cha damage
- Use Deft Strike, flank and get sneak attack
4. Dazed, one square away from the opponent (too close to charge) and with an adjacent opponent threatening an OA if I use a ranged attack:
- Use ranged Sly Flourish, get +Cha damage, risk an OA
- Use Deft Strike, risk OA, flank and get sneak attack
I can't imagine my halfling artful dodger rogue without Deft Strike!
The flexibility it provides still astounds my DM; great for sniping, great for getting to a flank position.
I can imagine that the melee basic training feat could be useful (when combined with the Warlord's Commander's Strike) in order to gain sneak attack damage IF you haven't already delivered sneak attack damage already during your turn, as that is the only time it would be beneficial (artful dodger halflings don't do much basic attack damage otherwise).... but I wouldn't rely on it to replace the Deft Strike at-will power.
I try to pick feats that are used regularly, rather than occasionally. Your Warlord would typically be better off granting the bonus attack to one of your defenders (assuming your party has any).
Deft strike is thorughly awesome. Our rogue once had a fight where she stood behind the tank (i.e. tank between her and target) and was able to deft strike in/shift out. i.e. she did 3or4 rounds of attacks without putting herself in danger as the they couldnt get past the fighter to her.
Then, in another fight, she used deft strike, dropped her target, and thanks to the fact she did not have to use a move action to get to her target, was able to then use the move action she had saved to run into cover (as there were archers shredding the party). As the DM, I congratulated the player on such an insightful move!
Thats the kicker, Deft Strike puts movement on your standard action, leaving your move action available for other use
If you use maps properly (I mean, no mistakes and get all your positioning right) abilities like Deft strike shine is a way that the simple text does not do justice.
I try to pick feats that are used regularly, rather than occasionally. Your Warlord would typically be better off granting the bonus attack to one of your defenders (assuming your party has any).
As it happens, the party I am joining has no defender -- aside from the warlord, it's pretty much all ranged attackers. I am designing my character partly to take advantage of those bonus attacks. Assuming the Warlord has Int 18 or higher (6th level characters), my rogue will be able to do:
Add in the occasional OA or charge attack, and I think Melee Training will more than pay for itself.
(Note: I'm taking Two Weapon Fighting largely as a pre-req for Two Weapon Defense, and for the character concept as well. I know it's not a great feat by itself.)
Hmm. Believe it or not, that's the first time I've ever been FIFY'd.
I grant your point, but the difference between +2d6 and +4 is not *that* big. A small improvement in a quasi-rare situation (one attack in five, maybe?) is not necessarily worth losing the alternative: Piercing Strike.
On the other hand, when do you really need Piercing Strike, for that matter? Against Soldiers or creatures with situationally enhanced AC, I guess.
Maybe it's time for me to go back and read the Rogue handbooks...
Hmm. Believe it or not, that's the first time I've ever been FIFY'd.
Ah, sorry if that sounded malicious or negative. I just figured it was the quickest way to make the point instead of re-stating what you'd written. Looking back, I guess it comes across as pretty brusque.
Quote:
I grant your point, but the difference between +2d6 and +4 is not *that* big. A small improvement in a quasi-rare situation (one attack in five, maybe?) is not necessarily worth losing the alternative: Piercing Strike.
Actually as a rogue, it's more likely to be +2d8 - backstabber is one of the best damaging feats you can pick up. Additionally there's the hit bonus, which adds even more (+2 normally, +3 if you get nimble blade, which is also probably a good idea).
According to monster stats, piercing strike averages out to around +3 to hit...
Quote:
On the other hand, when do you really need Piercing Strike, for that matter? Against Soldiers or creatures with situationally enhanced AC, I guess.
Maybe it's time for me to go back and read the Rogue handbooks...
Personally I think it's a good idea to choose EITHER sly flourish OR piercing strike. At heroic, and assuming that +3 average, sly flourish does slightly more damage, plus it can be used at range and works even when you don't have CA (the damage benefit of piercing strike relies on you doing sneak attack).
At paragon the two draw roughly even, and at epic piercing strike is the better of the two (lack of CA and ranged ability notwithstanding).
That said, that is using the assumption that you'll only have one OR the other. If you can have both, then you'll end up with an edge: how much of an edge depends on exactly what monsters you fight though, and personally I think it falls short of being able to combine movement and an attack into a single action.
Daring Performer is like getting an extra encounter power. It lets you make your 1/encounter bluff check to gain CA instead of Deft Strike's movement. Useful.
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