Disarm in 4E

[Flipguarder]

then why is enhancement bonus an issue?

[babinro]

Disarm in my mind would only work if feats/bonuses applied to the hero and not their ability to fight with weapons. As such, the act of disarming would simply remove the magical weapon properties while not effecting Attack and Damage rolls.

To limit Disarm to classes is too silly to me. That would be like limiting bull rush or charge to classes. This is something that anyone in life can 'attempt'.

Therefore my take (using the above examples as a baseline)


Disarm
At-Will * Weapon
Standard Action Melee Weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength -4 vs. Fort OR Dexterity -4 vs. Reflex.
Hit: The target drops its weapon in its square. Any creature may pick up the weapon, but doing so provokes an opportunity attack. The disarmed creature may make unarmed melee attacks with the same attack and damage bonuses as they had with the weapon, but can no longer apply special weapon properties and powers that the weapon previously granted. These changes end immediately when drawing a new weapon or implement.
Special:
For each size category smaller,, you receive a cumulative +4 bonus to hit.
For each size category larger, you take a cumulative -4 bonus to hit.

[Cwheeler]

then why is enhancement bonus an issue?

Fair call.

Originally Posted by babinro

Disarm
At-Will * Weapon
Standard Action Melee Weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength -4 vs. Fort OR Dexterity -4 vs. Reflex.
Hit: The target drops its weapon in its square. Any creature may pick up the weapon, but doing so provokes an opportunity attack. The disarmed creature may make unarmed melee attacks with the same attack and damage bonuses as they had with the weapon, but can no longer apply special weapon properties and powers that the weapon previously granted. These changes end immediately when drawing a new weapon or implement.
Special:
For each size category smaller,, you receive a cumulative +4 bonus to hit.
For each size category larger, you take a cumulative -4 bonus to hit.

Well, it's certainly balanced, and it provides a disincentive to pick up the weapon. This would be an interesting tactic when combined with pull/push/slide powers.

I may still be tempted to use 'weakened until re-armed' insted of unarmed strike though, as this:
a) effects the damage of powers
b) provides a greater incentive to re-arm
c) doesn't bring up problems with 'weapon-specific' powers, such as most rogue ones
&
d) characters wielding implements can be effected (which means you'd want a rule for improvised implements)

That said, I'd be combining it with these rules:
Reduced Reliance on Magic Items?

And providing lots of opportunities to use broken chair legs, metal bars, bottles, etc.

[Garthanos]

Originally Posted by Cwheeler

That's presuming you need exact simulation. I'm happy with just getting the 'cinematic feel' of disarmament.

The reducing dependence on toys rules I am considering include all heros are proficient unarmed (as a +2). And the toys only give +1 to +3 (1 per tier) for enhancement. (also Less frequent game compulsion to trade in for upgrade or find new runes to enhance however you describe it ;-). All attacks get a bonus it replaces the lost half enhancement bonus at 6+1, 16 +2 , 26 +3.
Not sure about expertise but reducing monster defenses by 1 per tier is attractive.
Expertise seems a bit of a boring no brainer... where as simple monster fixing keeps all attacks more competant.

[Garthanos]

Originally Posted by babinro

Any creature may pick up the weapon, but doing so provokes an opportunity attack. .

I missed that element on first reading but I like it.

Another simmy rule... I would make the attack roll for both types (str and dex) inorder to disarm an opponent with a two handed grip. It is that hard.

I dont like the enhancement bonus thing too artificial (if its going to be that faux might as well go with a weakened condition mentioned elsewhere) but with my reducing dependence on toys rules in place.

By the way rationale wise... I could do a charge or bull rush as a twelve year old as can any kid with a temper probably... I don't think comparing that to either a twisting or slamming disarm move that I can occasional do now makes realistic sense. That said its cinematic and more D&D like if we do make disarming more common in some fashion which is my reason for thinking they went the wrong direction with disarm in 4e.

I think it should be class powers and they could be quite a few in number distinct and vivid.

For Martial Folk
Twisting, slamming (aka the numbed grip) and grabbing (requires you do a successful grab the round before), riposted disarms with triggers like enemy misses you with a melee attack and similar things. The stabbed hand/slashed variety disarm damage 1hp and lose the blade (damage would not affect a minion unless you have bloodiable minion rules ;-))

For Arcane folk
heating the cold steel, shocking discharge, slippery grip, acid burn, muscle spasms, wood animated against them and bigbies disarming hand .... could be interesting. Triggers for some of them could be the enemy hits you and you uses shocking discharge. Some of these might give a lose a few hit points or drop your weapon as a choice to the target others might act like the one martial variety and do 1 point of damage as well as disarm... if you take real hit point loss. (thp and damage resistance can prevent)

Like somebody else mentioned I think they would work much more appropriately as an encounter power ... ie in the martial case once somebody sees you try a particular disarm.... umm consider that a trick revealed.

[Cwheeler]

I'll be using the following modification of babinro's rules:

Disarming:
Disarm
At-Will * Weapon
Standard Action Melee Weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength -4 vs. Fort OR Dexterity -4 vs. Reflex.
Hit: The target drops its weapon in its square. Any creature may pick up the weapon, but doing so provokes an opportunity attack. The disarmed creature may make attacks as if they where wielding the weapon, but can no longer apply special weapon properties and powers that the weapon previously granted. The character is also weakened. These changes end immediately when the character arms themselves with a new weapon or implement.



I'll try this out in my game and see how it goes..

[Flipguarder]

I actually have very little problem with that power. Good work!

[Cwheeler]

Most of the credit goes to Babinro, of course. I just modified it a little.

I'm still undecided on the 'size effecting disarming' issue. I'm not comfortable with the +/-4 idea, as it royally screws over small characters (and I have 4 playable small races in my campaign). Perhaps reducing this to +/-2, and/or making it only come into play when you're dealing with characters more that one size larger than you.

This may look something like this.
Special: When disarming opponents more than 1 size larger than you, you take a -2 penalty to the attack roll. This increases by -2 with each size category of difference beyond the second.

I could actually see this working both ways - A giant might find it difficult to disarm a halfling, and a human might find it difficult to disarm a pixie.

If you wanted to make it symmetrical, it would look like this:
Special: When disarming opponents more than 1 size larger or smaller than you, you take a -2 penalty to the attack roll. This increases by -2 with each size category of difference beyond the second.


Still not sure though.

[babinro]

Tweaks such as the -2 for size categories beyond the 2nd could easy turn out far more balanced. It is a mechanic that requires testing, no question.

Adding the weakened condition is up to the DM, but I feel this is still too harsh for something anyone can potentially do. Weakened in my opinion is one of the more powerful conditions to place on someone, and shouldn't be given out as an at-will vs armed opponents.

[Garthanos]

<strange sense of humor alert>

Associated rules change... All encounter attack powers and combat bluffs may be freely reused.

Paying attention
"The fool is trying it again ... yawn"
At-Will Free Action Range 10
Trigger: Enemy reuses an encounter attack power or re-attempts a standard disarm or combat bluff against you this encounter. Paragon path abilities which grant reuse of powers do not trigger this power.
Effect: you gain combat advantage against triggering opponent till the end of your next turn. Your defenses and saving throws gain a cumulative +2 versus this attack. You gain an opportunity attack if they miss.

its probably broken (ie not powerful enough)

[Cwheeler]

Originally Posted by babinro

Adding the weakened condition is up to the DM, but I feel this is still too harsh for something anyone can potentially do. Weakened in my opinion is one of the more powerful conditions to place on someone, and shouldn't be given out as an at-will vs armed opponents.

You could be right, but it's worth a shot. Playtest time! (I'll test both the weakened and the unarmed versions).

[tyrlaan]

Originally Posted by babinro

Adding the weakened condition is up to the DM, but I feel this is still too harsh for something anyone can potentially do. Weakened in my opinion is one of the more powerful conditions to place on someone, and shouldn't be given out as an at-will vs armed opponents.

I would agree. Perhaps a disarm that imposes the weakened condition should be reserved for an encounter power? Alternatively, perhaps it would be balanced to have an at-will that weakens if the at-will provokes an OA?

BTW, add me to the ranks that thinks this is a pretty solid implementation.

[babinro]

Originally Posted by tyrlaan

I would agree. Perhaps a disarm that imposes the weakened condition should be reserved for an encounter power? Alternatively, perhaps it would be balanced to have an at-will that weakens if the at-will provokes an OA?

BTW, add me to the ranks that thinks this is a pretty solid implementation.

It is always nice to know one of your ideas have some support.

I like your suggestion there.

A lower level encounter power could for example deal damage and disarm your opponent, throwing them off balance and causing them to fall prone.

A higher level encounter/daily could incorporate effects like weaken, dazed, or stun.

It would even have feat potential based on game testing.
Paragon Feat: Improved Disarm: Req 15 Dex OR 15 Str: Grants a +2 feat bonus to disarm attempts and allows you to shift the weapon 1 square from its initial landing spot.

[CovertOps]

I seem to remember reading that one of the design goals was to make sure you did not have to make adjustments to your character sheet at the table. For this reason they got rid of all magic that changed your stats during play and probably a few other things as well. The most realistic version of disarm would require you to violate this rule so I think for this reason they just left it out. I offer this to the OP for his player as a defense about why it was left out. I'll also note that every suggestion thus far seems to stay clear of this. IMO this is one of the better benefits of 4e - not having to recalculate your character every round of combat.

[WalterKovacs]

Originally Posted by Garthanos

<strange sense of humor alert>
its probably broken (ie not powerful enough)

First of all, it should probably be either No Action, Free Action or an Immediate Interupt. Minor Actions don't traditionally have triggers, nor would that particular trigger occur during the monster's turn normally.